The Free Voice of the Fort Leonard Wood MO Area

Opinion Section => Military Opinion => Topic started by: matrsnot on January 14, 2009, 06:30:48 PM

Title: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: matrsnot on January 14, 2009, 06:30:48 PM
Once implemented, I can see lots of problems arising.  There are a few issues.  First will be the breakdown in discipline and teamwork.  Many heterosexuals may well refuse to work side by side with homosexuals.  Many will also elect not to have a room with homosexuals either.  Result?  Article 15 or Courts Martial for refusing to sleep in the same tent or room with a homosexual.  I think the policy should remain as is.  Just my feeling on it.
 
 
 
 
WASHINGTON () -- In an overlooked YouTube video posted on Friday, a spokesman for Barack Obama said the president-elect is committed to ending the policy that bars openly gay men and women from serving in the U.S. armed forces.  (http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/POLITICS/01/14/obama.gays.military/art.gibbs.afp.gi.jpg)    Barack Obama is committed to overturning "don't ask, don't tell," his spokesman, Robert Gibbs, says. (http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/img/2.0/mosaic/base_skins/baseplate/corner_wire_BL.gif)  In a response to a question on the Web site Change.gov asking whether Obama would get rid of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs said: "You don't hear politicians give a one-word answer much. But it's 'Yes.'"
Gibbs on Wednesday expanded on his answer, saying, "There are many challenges facing our nation now and the president-elect is focused first and foremost on jump-starting this economy.
"So not everything will get done in the beginning but he's committed to following through" with ending the policy against being openly gay in the military (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/U_S_Armed_Forces).
The policy bans military recruiters or authorities from asking someone about his or her sexual preference, but also prohibits a service member from revealing if he or she is gay.
During the presidential campaign, Obama said he would work to end the policy, but because it is dictated by federal law, he can not ended it unilaterally.
Congress must pass legislation overturning the policy, which was put into place at the beginning of the Clinton administration. Former President Bill Clinton tried to overturn the "don't ask, don't tell" policy when he took office in 1993, but he was strenuously opposed by the military leadership.
In the last Congress, a bill was introduced in the House by Rep. Martin Meehan, D-Massachusetts, that would have implemented "a policy of nondiscrimination on the basis of sexual orientation."
The bill had 149 co-sponsors, but it never came up for a full vote in the House. It has yet to be re-introduced in the new Congress, which began last week.
"The key here is to get bills that pass the House and the Senate, that we can get to President-elect Obama to sign, and I think that we can do that, certainly, the first year of the administration," one of the co-sponsors, Democratic Rep. Ellen Tauscher (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Ellen_Tauscher) of California, told CNN in November.
Public opinion appears to be shifting on the matter. A CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll conducted December 19-21 found that 81 percent of respondents believe openly gay people should be allowed to serve in the U.S. military, while 17 percent said they shouldn't. The poll's margin of error was plus-or-minus 3 percentage points.
The chairman of the joint chiefs of staff at the time, retired Gen. Colin Powell, also believes it is time to reevaluate the policy -- although he has not said he favors its reversal.
"It's been 15 years and attitudes have changed," Powell told CNN in December. "And, so, I think it is time for the Congress, since it is their law, to have a full review of it. And I'm quite sure that's what President-elect Obama will want to do."
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: What_The? on January 14, 2009, 06:33:40 PM
Thousands of homosexuals have died in service of their country.

Many times that have served with honor and ditinction.

Just because you are closeted and afraid of your own hidden desires doesn't mean that those irrational fears should be catered to.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: ex-ed on January 14, 2009, 06:46:33 PM
    I served with many homosexuals of both sexes during my 20+ years of service and not once did their sexual orientation affect the mission or my sanity or serenity. I personally find homosexual behavior abhorrent, but I cannot hate the person involved.
    God's word calls it "an abomination," but it also condemns heterosexual infidelity along with other sins such as pride, greed, gluttony, laziness, drunkenness, and disobedience to parents, so I cannot condemn those who practice homosexuality any more than I can condemn those whose greed caused the current national financial crisis.
    Bottom line, those who err will answer for their errors to someone far greater than me, unless they turn from their erroneous ways. Those who come under that condemnation will regret it for eternity.  :th_thmuwahaha-1:
    Let homosexuals serve their nation as their hearts lead them. Those who have problems with it probably have many more-serious problems to deal with and will answer to God for their intolerance and unforgiving hatred of their fellow man.
 
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: igahmah at work on January 14, 2009, 06:50:20 PM
Way to go ex-ed.  I could not have said it better myself!!!!!!
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: ex-ed on January 14, 2009, 06:55:05 PM
Way to go ex-ed.  I could not have said it better myself!!!!!!

Oh sure you could have! Just say what's in your heart!
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: matrsnot on January 14, 2009, 07:00:49 PM
I am pointing out human problems.  I knew many homosexuals while in the military and even sent a couple home for their inability to keep in the closet.  many years ago.  That was my duty at the time.  I am pointing out that many soldiers will outright refuse to sleep in the same accomodations with other gender oriented soldiers.  I don't think the policy should change.  My dislike for a behavior is not a fear of it. 
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Coyote on January 14, 2009, 07:08:06 PM
What does "openly" Gay mean?  Just saying they are Gay?  Or smooching on a bench by the PX or other displays of affection?  What is "openly"?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: igahmah at work on January 14, 2009, 07:31:38 PM
Well, personally I am against "pda" anyway gay or straight.  A kiss is ok but some people need to get a room.
 
You know the old saying "jealousy is a .......)  :( ;D
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: kari on January 14, 2009, 07:56:57 PM
Wow, matrsnot... you just posted the most difficult thread for me.  I am all for gay rights, to include marriage.  I have family and friends that are homosexual.  One of my best friends in basic was homosexual.  Though I had no problem with homosexuals, or heterosexuals, not everyone feels the same, especially when it comes to the military!  I am so torn between my personal beliefs in respect to equal rights, and my feelings towards conformity in the military. 

I found my friend (best friend in basic) sitting on the stairs in the firewell, crying.  She told me she was a lesbian.  My response was, yea so why are you crying.  Her being a lesbian, was like someone telling me they drive fords.  Didn't mean anything to me, as I was concerned for her crying.  She explained that she was crying, because she was afraid that the Army would discover she was homosexual and she would be discharged.  She was exactly like me, a real patriot.  She just wanted to serve her Country. At the time, I really didn't understand.  How could someone's sexual orientation be seen as something that could get you dismissed from a "job", from doing something that was so much a part of you.  I know I will never forget her crying, and the honest fear she had.  Even now, it brings tears to my eyes.  She had such a strong passion for this Country that I was proud to call her my best friend.

Once I got to my permanent duty station, I was faced with another reality.  In the showers, women were openingly being sexual with one another!  Being heterosexual, seeing women with women, I found it rather disgusting, and was very vocal at telling them to handle their love life in private.  I believe I would have been just as vocal had it been heterosexual couples... or at least I hope I would have been.  I think women are generally more accepting of others as we don't seem to have as much of a problem with our sexuality as many men do.  I don't mean this offensively, but many men seem to have the need to always show they are big, tough, guys.  I would venture to say, had the situation been a heterosexual male soldier, going into the showers seeing other male soldiers involved in homosexual acts, it may not have been a nice "talking to".

Now comes the problem.  Our military must act as a team.  Each part of that team has a role to play.  What if, one or more members of that team feels the disgust I felt (in the shower) and carries it over to their job?  I had no problem with any of the ladies outside of the shower incident(s), but others may not be able to let it go.

I wish I knew the answer, but the more I think it out, the more difficult it all becomes to me.  I am interested in knowing everyone's thoughts on this subject, and hope that eventually, I can come to some peace in respect to it.
 %%$%$$# %%$%$$# %%$%$$# %%$%$$# %%$%$$# %%$%$$# %%$%$$# %%$%$$#
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: 48fan on January 14, 2009, 08:05:33 PM
I will say only this in regards to this situation. Out of sight is out of mind. In plain site it will be a HUGE problem.
 
Kari I agree. The situation will carry over to the job and bad things will probably come out of it.
 
Just hope we survive all these "CHANGES".  ;D
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: fish on January 15, 2009, 02:18:56 AM
I have no idea if I served with gay people or not.that is how it should be. the military is made up of rules and regualtions for a reason. we do not pick which ones to obey. If someone willingly violates one regulation, what other regulation will they violate?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: matrsnot on January 15, 2009, 02:39:34 AM
I always meant to ask.  Winston were you ever in the military?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 15, 2009, 03:01:50 AM
How do you know if a dead person was a homosexual in the military?  All those serving prior to "don't ask, don't tell" were serving in violation of military law.  Furthermore, they falsified documentation when asked about their sexual preference.  Even after the policy was enacted, one couldn't disclose their sexuality.  Please help me out here....................
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 15, 2009, 03:10:19 AM
I have no idea if I served with gay people or not.that is how it should be. the military is made up of rules and regualtions for a reason. we do not pick which ones to obey. If someone willingly violates one regulation, what other regulation will they violate?

That is precisely why the regulations are going to be changed. Then people don't have to violate them, and you won't have to worry about what other ones they are willing to violate. We are doing this for your peace of mind, fish.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 15, 2009, 03:17:27 AM
prE4chEr,  I must admit that I couldn't adapt to today's military environment.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 15, 2009, 03:34:47 AM
prE4chEr,  I must admit that I couldn't adapt to today's military environment.

It's a whole new world.
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8NKp4sGe14 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8NKp4sGe14)
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 15, 2009, 04:57:22 AM
Your video is "The dawning of the age of Aquarius"
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 15, 2009, 05:06:45 AM
Your video is "The dawning of the age of Aquarius"

Nah, I'm not gay hippie. I am Hendrix, Skynryd, Doors, Zeppelin, etc hippie. Like good ol boy hippie.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 15, 2009, 05:26:27 AM
The most serious affliction imaginable would be one torn between "Disco & The Age of Aquarius"
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: fish on January 15, 2009, 01:38:49 PM
nope again preach. the military is an organization that operates under good order and discipline. you probably can't comprehend that, but the military is a unique organization that requires things the civilian world doesn't need.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Coyote on January 15, 2009, 02:34:09 PM
When I enlisted prior to "don't ask, don't tell", I don't remember ever having to mark a document with what my "sexual preference" was...
 
How do you know if a dead person was a homosexual in the military?  All those serving prior to "don't ask, don't tell" were serving in violation of military law.  Furthermore, they falsified documentation when asked about their sexual preference.  Even after the policy was enacted, one couldn't disclose their sexuality.  Please help me out here....................
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 15, 2009, 04:04:28 PM
I think it was more like a yes-no questionire.  Perhaps the recruiter filled this out because I specifically recall being asked about sexual preference.  Numerous questions were asked from my recollection, similar to that of a medical questionnaire.  Obviously we had to sign something for it to be legally binding.  Man we're talking 30 years ago here.  Feb. 1979
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 15, 2009, 06:20:40 PM
nope again preach. the military is an organization that operates under good order and discipline. you probably can't comprehend that, but the military is a unique organization that requires things the civilian world doesn't need.

Nope again? As for good order and discipline, that is precisely why eliminating "don't ask, don't tell" will cause little if any problems. If the military is so disciplined, they could handle a little butt sex.
 
You are probably a little right though. If the people on here are any indication, the military could be filled with whiny sensitive homophobes who couldn't do their jobs if they knew there was a gay person around. If they let gay people in, all the current military members are going to get real sad and not do their jobs. It will be a real problem for morale.
 
What exactly does the military require that the civilian world doesn't need?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: kari on January 15, 2009, 06:39:35 PM
When I enlisted prior to "don't ask, don't tell", I don't remember ever having to mark a document with what my "sexual preference" was...
I enlisted during the Vietnam era..... I don't ever remember being asked such a question either!
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: kari on January 15, 2009, 06:40:34 PM
I think it was more like a yes-no questionire.  Perhaps the recruiter filled this out because I specifically recall being asked about sexual preference.  Numerous questions were asked from my recollection, similar to that of a medical questionnaire.  Obviously we had to sign something for it to be legally binding.  Man we're talking 30 years ago here.  Feb. 1979
Is it possible only males were asked?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: kari on January 15, 2009, 06:49:30 PM

Nope again? As for good order and discipline, that is precisely why eliminating "don't ask, don't tell" will cause little if any problems. If the military is so disciplined, they could handle a little butt sex.
 
You are probably a little right though. If the people on here are any indication, the military could be filled with whiny sensitive homophobes who couldn't do their jobs if they knew there was a gay person around. If they let gay people in, all the current military members are going to get real sad and not do their jobs. It will be a real problem for morale.
 
What exactly does the military require that the civilian world doesn't need?
Hey, watch that!  I am NOT a "whiny, sensitive, homophobe" and I'm on this board.  Yes, there are homophobics in the military, and in the civilian world, but not everyone is homophobic.  The military life is very different from civilian life, and that's where I do have concern.  I just don't know how it would all work out, having a heterosexual male (possiblly homophobic) having to shower, sleep, and fight along side someone that he may have an aversion for.  I don't think women in the military would have as much of a problem with it, as (no offense meant towards the men) we do seem to be able to adapt to different situations a tad more.  I'm sure there will be those that disagree with me, but I've personally seen more heterosexual woman accept homosexuals for who they are, as oppose to what they are, more frequently than heterosexual males do.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: matrsnot on January 15, 2009, 06:50:09 PM
Not sad Preacher.  Pissed off at having to share a room with a homosexual and not having a damn thing to say about it will destroy morale. You seeem to think those not wanting to associate with homosexuals are all homophobes and they should be somehow ashamed because they don't want to associate with them.  Cut the political correctness BS and get to the real issue.  There are mixed feelings about this don't ask don't tell thing.  I wanted to raise the issue and get others to think about this a bit. there have been some interesting answers so far.  I enlisted in 1969 and WAS asked.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Geezer Glide Taz on January 15, 2009, 06:51:36 PM
I no more condone Homosexuality than most of you do, Not for religious reason, it just does not seem right to me, and just grosses me out at the thought. But that does not mean that I nor anyone has the right to bar them from the military nor marriage.
I have heard the old religion excuse before. It was used then on why a black man should not be allowed to marry a white women. Thank god we moved passed that huh? So basically this is our next major prejudice right? We are against homosexual marriages the same way our parents were against interracial marriages. It was new and there for not accepted.
 
Same goes for the military. Wasn't too many years ago, Black troops were not allowed to be in the same barracks with white soldiers. And everyone said it was because a white soldier would never allow himself to be in the same room. Glad we moved on past that huh?
 
There is no reason why this can't work. I not only knew plenty of Homosexuals while I was in, and their sexuality never affected their job performance nor effected any of the soldiers they were in the same barracks with, there were plenty of heterosexuals in there that had some very weird ideas about what was normal for sex that I would rather have nothing to do with (I could tell you stories for days) , but they were still good soldiers.
 
Bottom line, a persons color, religion nor his or her preference should never be a factor in being able to serve in the Armed Forces protecting this country.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: ex-ed on January 15, 2009, 07:01:17 PM
I no more condone Homosexuality than most of you do, Not for religious reason, it just does not seem right to me, and just grosses me out at the thought. But that does not mean that I nor anyone has the right to bar them from the military nor marriage.
I have heard the old religion excuse before. It was used then on why a black man should not be allowed to marry a white women. Thank god we moved passed that huh? So basically this is our next major prejudice right? We are against homosexual marriages the same way our parents were against interracial marriages. It was new and there for not accepted.
 
Same goes for the military. Wasn't too many years ago, Black troops were not allowed to be in the same barracks with white soldiers. And everyone said it was because a white soldier would never allow himself to be in the same room. Glad we moved on past that huh?
 
There is no reason why this can't work. I not only knew plenty of Homosexuals while I was in, and their sexuality never affected their job performance nor effected any of the soldiers they were in the same barracks with, there were plenty of heterosexuals in there that had some very weird ideas about what was normal for sex that I would rather have nothing to do with (I could tell you stories for days) , but they were still good soldiers.
 
Bottom line, a persons color, religion nor his or her preference should never be a factor in being able to serve in the Armed Forces protecting this country.

On the money, Taz! Let's live and let live.
I agree with others though, who have said that PDA should be restricted. There's a time and place for everything, and out in public is not the place for overt physical friendliness. That's why G-d made bedrooms and motels!
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: igahmah at work on January 15, 2009, 07:10:41 PM
I don't know, I kinda think that most gay people in the military, even if told it doesn't make a difference, won't want to  shout from the rooftop that they are gay.  I think they will still be afraid of being ostricized from the rest of the guys.  Nothing overt or physical harm, just not being considered one of the "guys" if they knew.  And you can't make them like someone, you can only tell them they can't beat them up or discriminate in promotions and such.  But I think people in the military enjoy the comraderie that they have with other members of the military and given a choice would probably want to keep their sexual orientation to themselves.  JMHO

If I were married and was cheating on my husband I wouldn't want everybody to know that either.  If I was married and we had great sex the night before, I would keep that to myself too.  Sex and the discussion of such, has no place in the workplace whether gay or hetero.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: ♥♣ ~Maynard~♣♥ on January 15, 2009, 07:17:31 PM

On the money, Taz! Let's live and let live.
I agree with others though, who have said that PDA should be restricted. There's a time and place for everything, and out in public is not the place for overt physical friendliness. That's why G-d made bedrooms and motels!
Now would you all please bow you heads in a momment of silence while i book a room thru the PWC link.
 
Thanks Sex_ ED i needed that ;D  opps i mean EX_ED :th_gen129:
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: kari on January 15, 2009, 07:20:40 PM
If I were married and was cheating on my husband I wouldn't want everybody to know that either.  If I was married and we had great sex the night before, I would keep that to myself too.  Sex and the discussion of such, has no place in the workplace whether gay or hetero.
I agree that sex has no place in the workplace, both homo and hetero..... Now, when I have great sex the night, morning, afternoon, evening, before, EVERYONE would know it just by my sh*t a$$ grin and AWESOMELY wonderful mood the next day!  ::) ;D
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: 48fan on January 15, 2009, 07:22:12 PM
So what was wrong with Don't ask and Don't tell?  Why do I need to know?
 
I could care less what you do at home. Just keep it at home.
 
 
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Coyote on January 15, 2009, 07:40:30 PM
Do you really think Black men and women's compare their struggle for equality with Gay men and women???....come on now.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: fish on January 16, 2009, 01:04:36 AM
if you spent time in the military preach, you know the answer to your question. if you haven't spent time in the military you wouldn't understand the answer.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: ex-ed on January 16, 2009, 01:20:00 AM
Now would you all please bow you heads in a momment of silence while i book a room thru the PWC link.
 
Thanks Sex_ ED i needed that ;D  opps i mean EX_ED :th_gen129:

You're very welcome NayNard! -- I mean MayNard.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 16, 2009, 01:26:27 AM
I'd pity the poor soul that reported into a infantry line company with a known homosexual orientation.   All the sensitivity training in the world wouldn't resolve the hostility it would create.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 01:38:37 AM
if you spent time in the military preach, you know the answer to your question. if you haven't spent time in the military you wouldn't understand the answer.

Nice cop-out. I wouldn't understand because I haven't spent time in the military? Good one. Because people in the military are so much different than everyone else. Oh yeah. That's right. I forgot. They are whiny. They are too afraid to actually know if their battle buddies are gay because occasionally they have to cuddle to stay warm.
 
Obviously you don't understand the civilian world, or the benefits the military can contribute to a person's civilian life. Discipline, camaraderie, honor, etc. are all things that would benefit the civilian world as much as the military. Now try again.
 
What exactly does the military require that the civilian world doesn't need?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 01:46:57 AM
I'd pity the poor soul that reported into a infantry line company with a known homosexual orientation.   All the sensitivity training in the world wouldn't resolve the hostility it would create.

Why would they have a known homosexual orientation? It's not like they are going to be wearing rainbow patches or anything. If they are ballsy enough to stroll into an infantry company and declare their sexuality, they are definitly in the right MOS. The infantry loves crazy people like that.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: fish on January 16, 2009, 01:49:29 AM
 not everyone can be in the military. but anyone can be a civilian. what is the mission of the military?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 16, 2009, 01:49:41 AM
Should weight standards be lifted also?  That's discriminatory.  Just asking............
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 01:51:41 AM
Do you really think Black men and women's compare their struggle for equality with Gay men and women???....come on now.

Regardless of what black people believe, there are comparisons to be made. At some point, being black in the wrong place could get you killed. The same applies for homosexuals.
 
The struggles are significantly different, but the hate they have endured is the same.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: ♥♣ ~Maynard~♣♥ on January 16, 2009, 01:56:28 AM
You're very welcome NayNard! -- I mean MayNard.
Oh man am I so disappointed, I waited 6 hrs. for a responce and all you could come up with is NayNard ??
How about Nay'NERD' Or may'nerd' or turd.
Come on Dan i deserve more effort don't I :crying:   :crying:
Dang it I get no disrespect >:D ***(**&
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: fish on January 16, 2009, 02:08:47 AM
height and weight standards are not real big in the af. I don't know about the other branches.. pt tests are becoming the discriminator whether a person is fit .


Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 02:10:46 AM
Should weight standards be lifted also?  That's discriminatory.  Just asking............

I think it should depend on the situation. Obviously you don't want obese people in the infantry, but I am sure there are jobs that could be done by obese people. I have also heard of people being too muscular for the military. They have little body fat, but they are still too heavy or big to meet the standards. This seems counter productive to me.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: matrsnot on January 16, 2009, 02:13:07 AM
Weight standards are already by the wayside.  They choose to ignore their own regulations when it suits them.  Preacher I was young once too and thought I knew everything about everything.  Then I grew up too.  You know nothing of the military or the infantry for that matter.  You have only preconceived conceptions.  I was in the infantry part of my carreer.  Crazy people are not needed there.  What is needed is a complete team.  Each member depending 100% on the other.  Regardless of the PC comments, it is difficult for many infantrymen to come to terms with having a homosexual in their midst.  A loss of trust and the team falls apart.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: kari on January 16, 2009, 02:17:24 AM

I think it should depend on the situation. Obviously you don't want obese people in the infantry, but I am sure there are jobs that could be done by obese people. I have also heard of people being too muscular for the military. They have little body fat, but they are still too heavy or big to meet the standards. This seems counter productive to me.
It's not just overweight.... Had the Doctor not allowed me to weigh in with all my clothes, winter coat, boots and pocketbook, I would not have made the weight requirement!  Nice Doctor!
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 16, 2009, 02:26:14 AM
I think if a person assumes that troops will have the same privacy and luxuries as afforded to them on Fort Leonard Wood, they're mistaken.  During my first 10 years in the USMC we had no privacy.  In most deployable units, people eat, breath, piss, and sleep in close proximity 24/7 365.  I'm sure the Army is quite similar as outlined above.
I just don't think this policy would fit well under these conditions.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 16, 2009, 02:30:24 AM
matrsnot even stated in better...........
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: fish on January 16, 2009, 02:31:04 AM
nope again preach, the military has standards that all have to meet and maintain. The marines, for example. all marines have to qualify on the m-16. officers on down.
there are physical requirements for certain jobs because the jobs are strenuous,these are above the minimum standards. there are no jobs designed for people that don't meet minimum standards
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 03:15:09 AM
You know nothing of the military or the infantry for that matter.  You have only preconceived conceptions.  I was in the infantry part of my carreer.  Crazy people are not needed there.

 
You can't BS a BS'er. The infantry is full of nutty people. I have hung out with enough people in the infantry to know that. Since you were in the infantry, how about telling us what it was like going to a bar with all of your infantry buddies outside an infantry base(campbell, benning, bragg)? It's a much different experience than going to a bar at a pogue(POG: Person Other than Grunt) post(Leonard Wood). It's different because infantry people are generally a little crazy. Some are proud to be crazy, they are called Marines.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 03:34:59 AM
nope again preach, the military has standards that all have to meet and maintain. The marines, for example. all marines have to qualify on the m-16. officers on down.
there are physical requirements for certain jobs because the jobs are strenuous,these are above the minimum standards. there are no jobs designed for people that don't meet minimum standards

The physical requirements should be different for someone in the infantry and someone in supply. Not all jobs are in the field. Paperwork has to be done too. I just think it is crazy to kick out a career soldier after 15 years for being eight pounds overweight. Certainly they could have found something he could have done.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: matrsnot on January 16, 2009, 01:29:57 PM
In the end, ALL soldiers may have to be in the infantry.  They are taught to shoot and fight.  Preacher, you seem to think being in the infantry is all about going to bars and fights.  It is not.  those guys let off steam when they get away from the constant training is all.  Not sure what you deem "crazy" either.  The Army is not inflexible, but there are standards to be met.    the only place I ever had a problem was with "dual" standards for men and women. in the PT test.  You really should not go after something about which you do not know or have not lived when it comes to this subject.  As far as AR 600-9 goes (Weight Control), try coming to the post sometime and look at all the fatties they have running around.  This regulation is not currently being enforced as far as I can see.  Just Saying.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 01:43:38 PM
In the end, ALL soldiers may have to be in the infantry.  They are taught to shoot and fight.  Preacher, you seem to think being in the infantry is all about going to bars and fights.  It is not.  those guys let off steam when they get away from the constant training is all.  Not sure what you deem "crazy" either.  The Army is not inflexible, but there are standards to be met.    the only place I ever had a problem was with "dual" standards for men and women. in the PT test.  You really should not go after something about which you do not know or have not lived when it comes to this subject.  Just Saying.

Yeah. I understand now. The only way to know the military is to have actually been in it. Brilliant. You couldn't possibly fathom the military life by just spending your ENTIRE life in or around military bases. You couldn't possibly know anything about the military by having a father that was in the military practically your whole life. We all know how easy it is for parents to leave that military life at work. It wouldn't at all bleed out on their children. Drill sargeants never ever bring that mentality home with them. Never. Being the child of a soldier is just like being the child of a civilian. We don't know jack about nothing.
 
So does that go for military wives too? If military brats aren't allowed to have opinions about the military, are the wives of soldiers allowed to?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 02:01:40 PM
Preacher, you seem to think being in the infantry is all about going to bars and fights.  It is not.  those guys let off steam when they get away from the constant training is all.  Not sure what you deem "crazy" either.

Maybe the reason I seem to think it is because that is what they would lead you to believe. Since you were in the infantry, you had to have had friends who liked to fight. Friends that decided even before leaving the house that they were going to fight someone at the bar.
 
Now don't get me wrong, I am not condemning it at all. We need people like that in the infantry, and people like that need to fight a lot. The locals who go to bars that have a lot of infantry guys at them take the risk of getting beat up. They are locals, they should know better. If they get beat up at a bar full of infantry, they deserve it. They should have left right away. Especially when the sh*t hit the fan. You don't want to be the four locals in the bar fighting twenty soldiers. You start out fighting a couple, but then the rest jump in instinctively. If you aren't in the military, and at a bar full of military guys; if you ever hear someone yell "Ranger Down", you might want to vacate the area swiftly. You really don't want to get caught up in that mess.
 
You don't have to worry about that crap happening in this town. This is a pogue(POG:Person Other than Grunt) post. You generally don't have to worry about fighting all the military in the bar. There just isn't that kind of military camraderie at POG posts. Guys here don't just jump into fights because another military guy is in one. They generally only jump into fights for people they personally know. I like this post. Just wish the town was a little bigger.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 16, 2009, 02:13:30 PM
What does "POG" mean?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 02:17:45 PM
What does "POG" mean?

POG- Person Other than Grunt...pronounced pogue.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 16, 2009, 02:19:13 PM
Thanks
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 02:21:48 PM
Thanks

No problem. I probably should have clarified it to begin with. I forget that not all the people on here have been affiliated with the military or people in the military.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 16, 2009, 02:25:38 PM
I've heard the term used when spelled out, but never abbreviated as such.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 02:29:02 PM
I've heard the term used when spelled out, but never abbreviated as such.

Good point. I should probably have spelled it out instead of abbreviating it. I'll do that. Thanks.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 16, 2009, 02:29:40 PM
I'm glad you modified your other comments to reflect that.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: matrsnot on January 16, 2009, 02:38:42 PM
We used another term.  REMF.  And I won't bother to spell that one out in this open forum, but the first two words are Rear Echelon.  Preacher, I stand corrected.  You have at least been exposed to the military over a period of time.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 02:39:46 PM
BTW there is a difference between a grunt and a Ranger,

Yes, but they are often at the same posts. I would rather get in a fight with 2 grunts than get in a fight with 1 Ranger. Though I would rather be in a bar filled with Rangers than a bar filled with grunts. Rangers are more disciplined.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 02:50:35 PM
Preacher, you seem to think being in the infantry is all about going to bars and fights.

Come on now. Be honest. You were in the infantry. You had to have at least witnessed some crazy bar fights. I mean over the top, riot police show up type bar fights. You had to have. Unless you didn't go to the bars with your boys. Even then, you had to have heard about some crazy ones.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: igahmah at work on January 16, 2009, 02:51:02 PM
Preach, I have lived my entire adult life around the military, married to a couple military men, one a drill sargent the other an engineer officer, plus working for and retiring from civil service.  I would never compare my knowledge of the military or what they have to deal with with someone who has been there.  Been to Viet Nam, Korea, Dessert Storm, Dessert Shield, Afghanistan, went through basic training etc.  How dare you!!!

So you had a father who was a drill sargeant, did you have to go out to the firing range or the hand grenade range with him, did you have the knowledge that every young man or woman you trained, you were training them as if their life depended on what you taught them.  Did you ever go sleep out in the field with a couple hundred other soldiers for a week in the cold.  I'm not ex military but I take offense for them that you would compare your experience in sitting at home in your nice warm house with your food prepared for you with theirs because your father was in the military.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 03:00:44 PM
Been to Viet Nam, Korea, Dessert Storm, Dessert Shield, Afghanistan, went through basic training etc.  How dare you!!!

Sure I haven't been to war, but I did watch Saving Private Ryan while I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.
 
I don't pretend to know what going to war is like. How could I? I can try to understand by listening to my friends and family tell me what they went through, but it isn't the same. I understand that, but I am not talking about war. I am talking about regular day to day miltary sh*t. I am talking about military policy and military mentality. You don't have to have served or been to war to understand that aspect of the military.
 
I think the people in the military will be professional enough to deal with homosexuals serving openly in the military. Everyone else seems to think it will adversely effect the military. I think it will be good for society.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: igahmah at work on January 16, 2009, 03:10:38 PM
But my point was, unless you have been through or experienced the things that most military people have experienced, which has had an effect on their mental status, their thought processing, then you can't understand why they do certain things or act certain ways.  You and I can work with, live with and love homosexual people not having a problem at all, but If you have ever been in a situation where someones homosexuality effected the outcome of a situation your opinion of gay people might be slightly askew and may cause some problems.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 03:13:47 PM
So you had a father who was a drill sargeant, did you have to go out to the firing range or the hand grenade range with him

Wow. Really? You must have not been a military brat. I have been to every range my dad worked at. I have been to most of the ranges my friend's parents worked at. It's just something you do as a child. You see what your parents do, and you learn a little about them. I have always been very proud of my father. I understand what he does. He and I are completely different people, but I love and respect everything about him. Especially his service to our country.
 
 
I'm not ex military but I take offense for them that you would compare your experience in sitting at home in your nice warm house with your food prepared for you with theirs because your father was in the military.

We have already determined that your opinion doesn't count on this thread. Don't feel bad, neither does mine. You can't possibly really be offended without having served yourself. You don't know what it's like.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 03:16:57 PM
But my point was, unless you have been through or experienced the things that most military people have experienced, which has had an effect on their mental status, their thought processing, then you can't understand why they do certain things or act certain ways.  You and I can work with, live with and love homosexual people not having a problem at all, but If you have ever been in a situation where someones homosexuality effected the outcome of a situation your opinion of gay people might be slightly askew and may cause some problems.

How would they know how it will effect the military? They haven't been in with openly gay soldiers. They can't have the thought process either then. Nobody in America is qualified under your standards to have an opinion about whether gay people should be allowed to openly serve. Everyone is just speculating on here.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 16, 2009, 03:17:48 PM
Yes but does your knowledge of the "military mentality" reflect your belief that "the military will be professional enough to deal with homosexuals serving openly in the military"?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Coyote on January 16, 2009, 03:22:34 PM
Please define "openly."
 

How would they know how it will effect the military? They haven't been in with openly gay soldiers. They can't have the thought process either then. Nobody in America is qualified under your standards to have an opinion about whether gay people should be allowed to openly serve. Everyone is just speculating on here.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: ex-ed on January 16, 2009, 03:27:28 PM
Oh man am I so disappointed, I waited 6 hrs. for a responce and all you could come up with is NayNard ??
How about Nay'NERD' Or may'nerd' or turd.
Come on Dan i deserve more effort don't I :crying:   :crying:
Dang it I get no disrespect >:D ***(**&

Looking for disrespect? Go talk to your kids!  :th_thicon_super:
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: igahmah at work on January 16, 2009, 03:28:20 PM
Going on the firing range with your dad is not exactly experiencing it from his point of view.  He had responsibility, all you had to do was "look cute" and oh yeah, stay out of the line of fire. :)
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Coyote on January 16, 2009, 03:31:31 PM
I bet he has a bunch of cammys for when he wants to "play like."
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: igahmah at work on January 16, 2009, 03:33:57 PM
Whether "openly gay" as you say or not, I think the men and women in the military know who is or isn't gay without them having to "ask or be told."  And I'm sure most of them don't have a problem with it unless something happens that changes their opinion of one gay soldier, then just like if you are white and have a bad experience with one black person or if you are black and have a bad experience with one white person, the whole gay population is your enemy.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 16, 2009, 03:36:10 PM
Hey Preach, let me ask this once again:

Does your knowledge of the "military mentality" reflect your belief that "the military will be professional enough to deal with homosexuals serving openly in the military"?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 03:36:43 PM
Going on the firing range with your dad is not exactly experiencing it from his point of view.  He had responsibility, all you had to do was "look cute" and oh yeah, stay out of the line of fire. :)

Hey. You're the one who mentioned going to ranges. I just think it is funny that you assume I didn't. Regardless, you can get an understanding of people's responsibilities by observing them performing their duties. You don't have to have been a president to understand the responsibilities Obama is about to face. Do you?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 03:43:42 PM
Hey Preach, let me ask this once again:

Does your knowledge of the "military mentality" reflect your belief that "the military will be professional enough to deal with homosexuals serving openly in the military"?

It is my belief that the United States military can adapt to anything thrown at them. It is my belief that people can change. Yes, an openly gay grunt is going to cause some problems in the beginning, but your perception of people changes once you have served with them. It's kind of difficult to hate on somebody you know has your six. A few bar fights can change some people's homophobia. If your gay battle buddy beat the crap out of some guy for you, you are probably going to be a little less homophobic. You can see the same thing in race relations. Many people go in the military racist, and come out not so racist.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 03:46:21 PM
I bet he has a bunch of cammys for when he wants to "play like."

Who didn't? Most of us Army brats wanted to be exactly like our fathers when we were younger. Some of us still do.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 16, 2009, 03:47:57 PM
The term "battle buddy" isn't used in all service branches but I appreciate your response.  I wasn't trying to hang you up either.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: igahmah at work on January 16, 2009, 03:48:36 PM

Hey. You're the one who mentioned going to ranges. I just think it is funny that you assume I didn't. Regardless, you can get an understanding of people's responsibilities by observing them performing their duties. You don't have to have been a president to understand the responsibilities Obama is about to face. Do you?

OH YES YOU DO!   No one knows the stess and responsibility that goes along with being president except for the 43 men who have already gone through it.  You might think you know, but then you think you know everything, but believe me you and I don't have a clue what goes through their heads and what they are thinking and the sleepless nights, and the worries.  You have so much growing up to do.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 03:50:06 PM
Please define "openly."

"Openly". Awarded the same rights as their heterosexual counterparts. Basically they should be allowed to have homosexual "barracks bunnies", and then have homosexual spouses when they mature a little.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 16, 2009, 03:51:12 PM
Preach, I do respect your honesty, especially when most opinions aren't in your favor regarding this topic; "mine included".
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 03:55:49 PM

OH YES YOU DO!   No one knows the stess and responsibility that goes along with being president except for the 43 men who have already gone through it.  You might think you know, but then you think you know everything, but believe me you and I don't have a clue what goes through their heads and what they are thinking and the sleepless nights, and the worries.  You have so much growing up to do.

Or you need to try being more realistic. If you are only allowed to have opinions about things you have experienced, none of us would be allowed to have any opinions. You don't have to do something to have a decent understanding of it. One can exercise the use of their imagination from time to time, and relate possible feelings with similar experiences in their own life.
 
You might not understand what it's like to bury your child, but you could imagine that it is an exponentially greater sadness than when your family dog died. You can have empathy for someone through your own traumatic experiences.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: igahmah at work on January 16, 2009, 04:05:30 PM
You can definately have your opinion, but your opinion stated that you thought you knew the military lifestyle just because you were a dependent.  My opinion is, you do not and cannot know until you experience it, just like the death of a child.  You cannot know how you will act until it happens to you.  Let me know what you think about military lifestyle after you enlist and come back from active duty.  And let me know what the president has to go through after your term is up.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: matrsnot on January 16, 2009, 04:13:54 PM
Preacher we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.  We will not see eye to eye.  YOu make some points, but the mentality will be tough on those first coming out in th emilitary.  Very rough and tough I am afraid.  I agree with you about the Presidency and the stress.  Not one of them has come out without gray hair, except those murdered in office.  He also does not understand the stress of combat or the need for absolute team work in completing the mission.  He does not understand the pride these men and women have either.  It will be interesting to see if he denigrates the military like Clinton did.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 04:15:32 PM
your opinion stated that you thought you knew the military lifestyle just because you were a dependent.  My opinion is, you do not and cannot know until you experience it,

I am willing to bet that if you went on post and said that to some military wives, you would get an earfull. Seriously, how can you disrespect the women and men who stand by their spouse soldiers when they go to war? The military effects everyone in the immediate family of the soldier. It can't be avoided.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 16, 2009, 04:27:22 PM
I agree with you about the Presidency and the stress.  Not one of them has come out without gray hair, except those murdered in office.  He also does not understand the stress of combat or the need for absolute team work in completing the mission.  He does not understand the pride these men and women have either.  It will be interesting to see if he denigrates the military like Clinton did.

I am sure he understands the concept of teamwork. He didn't live under a rock his whole life.
 
And it is impossible to not know the pride our servicemembers have. They exude it every day. He has witnessed it. He knows.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: fish on January 16, 2009, 04:37:45 PM
he will quickly learn more of what the military thinks of him. He may have gooten a hint at the dining hall he was at. nothing was wrong with the marines actions,but I am guessing W will always get a much better response when ever he is around military folks. clinton was not liked or respected by much of the military.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Coyote on January 16, 2009, 04:40:53 PM
They would understand if they were prior service...But the others?  I'd bet most don't even know their spouse's MOS, let alone what an MOS is.  But they do know an LES and how much pay they should be receiving.
 

I am willing to bet that if you went on post and said that to some military wives, you would get an earfull. Seriously, how can you disrespect the women and men who stand by their spouse soldiers when they go to war? The military effects everyone in the immediate family of the soldier. It can't be avoided.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: matrsnot on January 16, 2009, 05:56:26 PM
Clinton?  Detested would be the proper word.  He got what he gave.  No respect.  I suspect Obama will receive the same as he takes, with his signature, 25% of their budget
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: contemplating on January 16, 2009, 06:35:12 PM
I am really surprised nobody has touched on the legal and peripheral issues this could present.  Gay marriage and TriCare for instance.  I understand the personal biases but there are many more things to be considered I believe.

The rules governing spouses are written in the traditional man woman union.  What will be the impacts there?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 16, 2009, 06:42:00 PM
Perhaps TriCare would be required to schedule yearly rectal exams, who knows.......
 
 :th_thwhistling:
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: kari on January 16, 2009, 06:53:38 PM
From what I've seen, the VA uses "spouse"....
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: contemplating on January 16, 2009, 06:59:22 PM
Perhaps TriCare would be required to schedule yearly rectal exams, who knows.......
 
 :th_thwhistling:

LOL - that was good   &&*)(*^(&
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: matrsnot on January 16, 2009, 07:26:10 PM
Tell them to make sure there is only ONE hand on the shoulder then.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Coyote on January 16, 2009, 07:44:36 PM
Ewwww...lol
 
Tell them to make sure there is only ONE hand on the shoulder then.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: wildman on January 16, 2009, 09:55:28 PM
I have never been in the military but I have the utmost respect to those who have. How many gay women are there in the military? How many gay men? I would assume the percentage is very low (1% or less) but I may be wrong. Are these individuals gay prior to military or do they become gay after entering the military?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: ex-ed on January 16, 2009, 10:18:26 PM
I have never been in the military but I have the utmost respect to those who have. How many gay women are there in the military? How many gay men? I would assume the percentage is very low (1% or less) but I may be wrong. Are these individuals gay prior to military or do they become gay after entering the military?

I don't think they can get accurate stats on the numbers currently serving, because anyone admitting their gay status is immediately processed out, not counted. My own estimate when I was serving on active duty (using the SWAG* method) was somewhere between 3 and 5 percent.
* Scientific Wild-Ass Guess
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: kari on January 16, 2009, 11:35:47 PM
I have never been in the military but I have the utmost respect to those who have. How many gay women are there in the military? How many gay men? I would assume the percentage is very low (1% or less) but I may be wrong. Are these individuals gay prior to military or do they become gay after entering the military?
Ah, homosexuals like heterosexuals are born that way..... Who in the world would wake up one day and say, "I think I want to be homosexual, possibly lose my family, friends, get thrown out of the military, get physically assaulted by homophobics, AND get discriminated against"?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: fish on January 17, 2009, 01:31:44 AM
nope again kari. we had this conversation already. there is no gay gene. it is a lifestyle choice.

another problem with gay marriage in the military,spouse benefits when there is a divorce.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: lobo4 on January 17, 2009, 02:04:50 AM
How do you know it is a choice when you yourself are heterosexual? How could you presume to know what a person feels their entire life? Kari is correct in saying why in the world would someone just say hey I want to be gay. Who are we to say what feels right to someone else.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: fish on January 17, 2009, 02:17:03 AM
there is no proven gay gene. it is a lifestyle choice. it has not been proven otherwise. why are gays able to change and live hetrosexual lifestyles?
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: kari on January 17, 2009, 06:16:06 AM
How do you know it is a choice when you yourself are heterosexual? How could you presume to know what a person feels their entire life? Kari is correct in saying why in the world would someone just say hey I want to be gay. Who are we to say what feels right to someone else.
***(**& ***(**& ***(**& Gays can't change.... bisexuals may prefer one sex more than another, or fall in love with either sex, but someone who is homosexual is ALWAYS homosexual!  No different than a heterosexual.  You are what you are!  The only so called homosexuals that announce they "changed", are promoting a religious belief... I have yet to hear of a homosexual that "changed" who wasn't pushing their religion....... 
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: darrellmaurina on January 17, 2009, 06:37:00 AM
I looked into this gay soldier issue a few years ago when Fort Leonard Wood had one of the highest discharge rates in the entire Army for homosexuals. There were allegations made that our post commander at the time had created a climate that encouraged homosexual discharges.
 
The reality was very different.
 
It turns out the places that have the highest rates of gay discharge are basic training posts. And how do these people get discharged for being gay? Not because the post commander created a climate of subverting "don't ask, don't tell," but rather because trainees tell their drill sergeant they're gay as a way to get out of the Army when they can't put up with basic training anymore.
 
Over the years I've repeatedly heard the same pattern told to me by drill sergeants and basic training company commanders who have to begin the outprocessing paperwork. People who they had no prior reason to believe were homosexual tried to get out of the Army citing other excuses, and finally figure out that claiming to be homosexual is an automatic "get out of the Army by outing yourself" method. And since people who they strongly believe are homosexual sometimes do everything they can to stay in the Army, basic training drill sergeants and company commanders are confronted with the strange reality of people who probably are homosexual being retained while people who probably aren't homosexual are allowed to leave because they claim a sexual preference that probably isn't true.
 
I'm sure there are cases where people who really are homosexual get "outed" in various ways. I knew at least one female Marine Corps senior NCO who was very proud to have been a Marine and continued to display her Marine Corps sticker on her car even after she got turned in as a lesbian and forced out of the military. (I think she was allowed to retire with around 20 years of service, but I don't remember now for sure.) However, at least around here, it's not that the Army is trying to get rid of homosexuals, but rather that people are making claims to be homosexual because of the "benefit" those claims give them.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: fish on January 17, 2009, 09:28:50 PM
that is more common than some think darrell. it was an easy way to get out.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 18, 2009, 08:59:30 AM
Not because the post commander created a climate of subverting "don't ask, don't tell," but rather because trainees tell their drill sergeant they're gay as a way to get out of the Army when they can't put up with basic training anymore.

So you have looked into this right? Did you actually do your homework, or are you just basing your "facts" on hearsay and rumor? Did you investigate or at least call anyone accused of lying about their sexuality to get out of the military? If you haven't, you shouldn't have phrased your sentence as such. You should point out that it is an unsubstantiated claim by an individual unqualified to psychologically evaluate a person's sexuality.
 
Besides, I haven't once heard anyone say that basic training is tough. Everyone always says it is much easier than what they expected. A cake walk, as freethinker once put it.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: matrsnot on January 18, 2009, 03:18:36 PM
Basic is a cakewalk NOW.  There was a time when they actually had to work hard to become a soldier.  Now the Drill's have to mollycoddle the young ones.  Can't have them get their little feelings hurt can we?  I know the enemy will sure be careful not to hurt them too.  I see a large amount of trainees going into the Behavior Management Division EACH DAY.  They can't handle the few stressors put before them.  As for the original point of the thread. I put a few out for homosexuality.  And these were not people in basic training either.But, I had more than just their word on the subject.  Generally, if there was one, there was another there too and they both got out, together.  I won't go further into that.  There are other ways to send them home besides being labeled homosexual.  Inability to adapt to military life is a good one too.  But there have been many who tried to use this as a way to get out, and as a ruse, because they aren't quite in the country club atmosphere they expected.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: kari on January 18, 2009, 03:56:40 PM
I am still very undecided on this subject.  I will say that I did not agree with co-ed basic, and was sad to see the WAC disbanded.  Though I feel strong about equal rights, I could not see women training in basic with the men.  The main reason was, I felt that the standards for basic would be lowered.  Either the standards were lowered to compensate, or women are not required to perform the same as the men?  Apparently it all worked out otherwise they (men and women) would have been separated again in basic.  For the women soldiers, I feel they lost connection with all of those that went before them, as the vast majority have no idea what the WAC was, how we were part of not only the WAC, but also the "regular" Army.  There was no such thing as "Behavior Management".  We had two lesbian Drill Sgts. who were much tougher on us (especially those not in their platoon), than our male Drill Sgt., not saying he wasn't rough on us either.  Basic training was not easy, but my fondest memories are those I have from basic training, our "pinning ceremony" at the WAC Chapel is still emotional for me, and the women that I went through basic with.  I am not only proud of serving in the U.S Army, but I am proud of serving as a WAC.  I know, times change, but I really feel our female soldiers are missing out on something that was special, just for us.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 18, 2009, 04:00:38 PM
Most have no idea of what the term "cakewalk" means.

cakewalk
     n : a strutting dance based on a march; was performed in
         minstrel shows; originated as a competition among Black
         dancers to win a cake

 
 
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 18, 2009, 04:10:25 PM
1. Something easily accomplished: Winning the race was a cakewalk for her.
2. A 19th-century public entertainment among African Americans in which walkers performing the most accomplished or amusing steps won cakes as prizes.

http://raw360.com/item/1933 (http://raw360.com/item/1933)
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: matrsnot on January 18, 2009, 07:18:19 PM
I did not and do not think basic training should be coed.  There are double standards (dual?) when it comes to the PT test alone and I believe the genders should be separated as they don't always keep their attention on required subject matter, but some on each other.  Just a short rant is all.  Not even that really.  JMHO
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: kari on January 18, 2009, 07:47:25 PM
They would understand if they were prior service...But the others?  I'd bet most don't even know their spouse's MOS, let alone what an MOS is.  But they do know an LES and how much pay they should be receiving.
I have to agree with Coyote!!  There are so many singles out there that know EXACTLY how much each pay grade is suppose to get, any reenlistment benefits, what benefits the spouses get, retirement benefits, etc., and "go after" those that "get the most"!  I was shocked when I first went on the dating scene.... there are sooooooooooooooo many men who are aware of my benefits!  As soon as a man starts asking about my military service in respect to my money, they are automatically deleted.

You will also find so many spouses (sorry to say, mainly women), who "wear their spouse's rank".  Way too many times (when I was in), I'd have some wife try to order me to do something.... "I'm (whatever rank)'s wife"!  I'd look at them and flat out tell them, well then you better tell your hubby what you want, because I'm not doing it.  I had one wife get sooooooo angry, and try to threaten me with an Article 15!  I just laughed at her, which in turn really pissed her off.  What she didn't realize was, in my MOS (at that time, don't know if things have since changed), I had final say in what I put my name to.  I could not be ordered to accept, or sign my name to anything that I rejected in accordance with the SOP.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: darrellmaurina on January 19, 2009, 03:13:21 PM
So you have looked into this right? Did you actually do your homework, or are you just basing your "facts" on hearsay and rumor? Did you investigate or at least call anyone accused of lying about their sexuality to get out of the military? If you haven't, you shouldn't have phrased your sentence as such. You should point out that it is an unsubstantiated claim by an individual unqualified to psychologically evaluate a person's sexuality.

Preacher, I wrote this: "Over the years I've repeatedly heard the same pattern told to me by drill sergeants and basic training company commanders who have to begin the outprocessing paperwork."
 
Neither you nor I have ever served in the Army, though both of our fathers did, so this is obviously secondhand and not from personal observation of basic training behavior. However, it is not hearsay or rumor when I've been told this by the people (drill sergeants and basic training company commanders) who had to deal with this directly, and told the same thing repeatedly by numerous people about different events taking place with different trainees over a long period of time in many different basic training units and AIT units at many different posts.
 
The Army does not care about making a psychological evaluation of a person's sexuality so there is no data available to me or anyone else on whether these people are "real homosexuals" or just claiming to be gay. If you don't claim to be a homosexual and don't engage in homosexual activities and basically don't bother anybody with your homosexual orientation or homosexual practice (and yes, I do know there is a difference between orientation and practice) it's irrelevant to the Army. If you claim to be homosexual or your behavior becomes publicly known, you're out -- yes, the pun is intended.
 
But having said that, when you've got a male trainee whose major problem one week was fraternizing with the female trainees and two weeks later he's claiming to be gay and gets an automatic discharge for being gay, it doesn't take a person with a M.A. or Psy.D. to know somebody is likely gaming the system. Bisexual? Maybe. But there are more plausible explanations.
 
Personally I've got no problem with discharging these people. We've got an all-volunteer force, and there are major financial rewards for joining the military. Nobody is required to enlist. And if you're going to lie about being gay, what else will you lie about? Under don't-ask-don't-tell, all homosexuals have to do is keep his/her mouth shut and they can serve all the way to retirement with no problem at all. There are a lot of other things people can't talk about or do while wearing the uniform, and if the military believes that's necessary for good order and discipline, I think those of us in the civilian world need to accept that NCOs and officers probably know a lot better about what works than those of us who have never been through basic training or OBC.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: fish on January 19, 2009, 06:55:19 PM
well said darrell. especially the part" if they you about being gay, what else will you lie about". the military is a unique organization defending our freedom from bases all over the world , and in some very sensitive jobs. Rules and regulations must be obeyed.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Vado Del Rio on January 20, 2009, 02:02:09 AM
What I find most outrageous are the retirees who come out of the closet immediately upon retirement.  They now collect a tax payer funded retirement for 20-30 years of "erroneous" service.  While on active duty, many had to pass judgement on those accused of of adultery and similar violations of the UCMJ.  Moreover, they have the arrogance to voice their opinion about the issue even though they have ZERO credibility and NO integrity whatsoever!   Sorry, but I have much more respect for those who reveal their true colors, opinions, and beliefs, whether I agree or not.
 
Note: I'm a heterosexual retiree who served "legitimately" Carter thru Clinton.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: darrellmaurina on January 20, 2009, 04:34:51 AM
Heaven knows I'm not defending homosexuals, and those serving pre-1993 when President Clinton implemented don't-ask-don't-tell, I've got major problems with because in most if not all cases, they lied at some stage of joining the military or re-enlisting. (On the other hand, I've heard of cases years ago where boxes on forms were left blank by a recruiter who "forgot" to ask a question he knew would generate the wrong answers, and the recruit was told he'd basically be OK if nobody found out about his homosexual orientation or practice, in a de facto don't-ask-don't-tell policy that existed long before Clinton made it official.)

HOWEVER... Let's say a female athlete from a rural high school enlisted in 1986, transferred to the National Guard in 1990, went to college courtesy of the GI Bill and ROTC, became a commissioned officer in 1994, and returned to active duty. In her conservative rural upbringing homosexuality wasn't even considered, but during her years at a left-wing college she "discovered" her lesbian sexual orientation, got a lot of affirmation from fellow students and professors, but decided there's no problem serving in the military which affirms her equal rights as a woman and has a don't-ask-don't-tell rule that says as long as she doesn't tell anyone about her sexual preference and doesn't out herself or act in ways that damage unit cohesion, she's OK according to the regulations. Has she really done anything wrong if she "comes out" after retiring as a LTC in 2009, after repeated early promotions due to merit?

I'm hard-pressed to say that someone in that circumstance -- and I know several of them in the officer corps, including a few at the senior officer level regarding whom their sexual orientation is commonly assumed but never discussed -- has done something wrong according to DOD regs. I do know that I don't want anyone like that anywhere near me in a shower or a close environment, but I don't see how my strong views on that are backed up by current DOD regs.
 
(For reasons I think everybody will understand, I've deliberately changed the dates of enlistment, commissioning and retirement, though not by much -- so if there is a female LTC out there with those dates, it's **NOT** any of the several people I'm thinking of. I don't need a half-dozen angry calls from female officers thinking I've "outed" them.)

What I find most outrageous are the retirees who come out of the closet immediately upon retirement.  They now collect a tax payer funded retirement for 20-30 years of "erroneous" service.  While on active duty, many had to pass judgement on those accused of of adultery and similar violations of the UCMJ.  Moreover, they have the arrogance to voice their opinion about the issue even though they have ZERO credibility and NO integrity whatsoever!   Sorry, but I have much more respect for those who reveal their true colors, opinions, and beliefs, whether I agree or not.
 
Note: I'm a heterosexual retiree who served "legitimately" Carter thru Clinton.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 20, 2009, 05:29:17 AM
But having said that, when you've got a male trainee whose major problem one week was fraternizing with the female trainees and two weeks later he's claiming to be gay and gets an automatic discharge for being gay, it doesn't take a person with a M.A. or Psy.D. to know somebody is likely gaming the system. Bisexual? Maybe. But there are more plausible explanations.

 
DTM, I'm rapidly beginning to suspect that you are an old man in your seventies who has no idea what homosexuals are like. (Like that one? I borrowed some of your words from another thread.)
 
It's common knowledge that homosexuals fraternize with women more than men. It's probably because they have more in common with them, and because they are more comfortable with them. That is how it is, how it was, and how it always will be. Gay men have a lot of female friends. If for no other reason, that is a very good reason to be open minded about homosexuality. Befriend a gay man, and he will talk you up to all of his generally amazing "girlfriends". Trust me on that one. Gay guys get the best women.
 
Also, if you are talking about sexual fraternization, that isn't uncommon for homosexuals either. There are a few reasons why gay men would have sex with women.
 
One is because they feel the need to overcompensate for their blatant homosexuality. If they are still in the closet, they feel the need to have a cover story. If they are constantly bringing women to bed, the family, friends, and coworkers are less likely to be suspicious. How can he be gay when I see him with a different woman every other week?
 
Another reason is that they may still be exploring their sexuality. They may be struggling with the fact they are homosexual, and want to try to enjoy sex with women so they can live a "normal" life. If sex with women can be fulfilling, maybe they can stop dreaming about men. It isn't uncommon for people struggling with their sexuality to experiment a bit. The gay men I know now were the guys in high school having the most sex with girls. It was pretty weird for me to find out one of my high school heroes was gay. He was having sex with every hot girl in school, but it turns out he was gay. I talked to him about it when he came out to me, and he said it was because he had to explore his sexuality. He knew he had feelings for men, but he wanted to try to have feelings for women. He wanted to try and have a "normal" life. Plus it would have been really hard for him to be the gay guy on the football team.
 
Basically what I am saying is that generally gay guys have a lot of sex with women early on in their lives. They are struggling with their sexuality, and the only way to fix the problem is to explore it. A guy fraternizing with women isn't enough to base an opinion on his sexuality. You don't know someone is gay until they tell you, or you walk in on them having gay sex.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: darrellmaurina on January 20, 2009, 06:14:11 AM
OK, Preacher, you've asked some legitimate questions and I see no reason not to tell you things most people I cover in my beat already know.

I'm in my forties, not my seventies, but considering that I'm married to a Korean from a culture where youth is not good and age is highly valued, perhaps I should consider your reference to my apparent advanced age as a compliment? LOL... ;-)

However, you are extremely wrong about me having "no idea what homosexuals are like." My home church is in the Greenwich Village neighborhood of New York City, within walking distance of the Stonewall site, and for many years it was the only evangelical church in the area. It has a strong outreach to the homosexual community and probably a quarter to a third of its members are ex-gays. And if that isn't enough to indicate that I might have a lot more familiarity with homosexuals than the average rural Missourian, most newspapers where I've worked had at least one very "out" homosexual on their staff, and often several of them, both male and female. I'm not very interested in stereotyping professions, but journalism has far more than its share of uncloseted gays.

You're not saying anything about "stereotypical" male homosexual behavior that I don't already know, including the high rate of promiscuity and other risky sexual practices (which I'm glad you brought up -- I wouldn't have had the same credibility you do on this issue), preference for female companions, and desire to "cover up" their homosexuality until they're secure enough in their orientation to be open about their practice.

I've known several "Log Cabin Republicans" (politically conservative homosexuals) who decided, I guess, to get to know me as a consevative evangelical to try to figure out what motivates a religious conservative to think the way I do, and I've known a number of lesbians in the media who believed -- correctly -- that I respect hard work and don't discriminate against successful professional women based on their gender. My mother put up with far too much garbage in the field of journalism back in the 1950s when women simply were not supposed to do things like be reporters, and I don't tolerate sexism in business.

But there is always going to be a distance there. Fundamentally, I believe that homosexual practices and desires are both sinful and I can't blame people for choosing friends who don't feel the way I do. While I will treat work colleagues professionally regardless of their sexuality, I guess a combination of my conviction that homosexuality is sinful and my visceral disgust for the mechanics of homosexuality keeps me from becoming more than professional friends with people who I sometimes respect a great deal as professional colleagues.


 
DTM, I'm rapidly beginning to suspect that you are an old man in your seventies who has no idea what homosexuals are like. (Like that one? I borrowed some of your words from another thread.)
 
It's common knowledge that homosexuals fraternize with women more than men. It's probably because they have more in common with them, and because they are more comfortable with them. That is how it is, how it was, and how it always will be. Gay men have a lot of female friends. If for no other reason, that is a very good reason to be open minded about homosexuality. Befriend a gay man, and he will talk you up to all of his generally amazing "girlfriends". Trust me on that one. Gay guys get the best women.
 
Also, if you are talking about sexual fraternization, that isn't uncommon for homosexuals either. There are a few reasons why gay men would have sex with women.
 
One is because they feel the need to overcompensate for their blatant homosexuality. If they are still in the closet, they feel the need to have a cover story. If they are constantly bringing women to bed, the family, friends, and coworkers are less likely to be suspicious. How can he be gay when I see him with a different woman every other week?
 
Another reason is that they may still be exploring their sexuality. They may be struggling with the fact they are homosexual, and want to try to enjoy sex with women so they can live a "normal" life. If sex with women can be fulfilling, maybe they can stop dreaming about men. It isn't uncommon for people struggling with their sexuality to experiment a bit. The gay men I know now, were the guys in high school having the most sex with girls. It was pretty weird for me to find out one of my high school heroes was gay. He was having sex with every hot girl in school, but it turns out he was gay. I talked to him about it when he came out to me, and he said it was because he had to explore his sexuality. He knew he had feelings for men, but he wanted to try to have feelings for women. He wanted to try and have a "normal" life. Plus it would have been really hard for him to be the gay guy on the football team.
 
Basically what I am saying is that generally gay guys have a lot of sex with women early on in their lives. They are struggling with their sexuality, and the only way to fix the problem is to explore it. A guy fraternizing with women isn't enough to base an opinion on his sexuality. You don't know someone is gay until they tell you, or you walk in on them having gay sex.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: kari on January 20, 2009, 07:43:29 AM
I'm in my forties, not my seventies, but considering that I'm married to a Korean from a culture where youth is not good and age is highly valued, perhaps I should consider your reference to my apparent advanced age as a compliment? LOL... ;-)
I vote for the Korean way of thinking about age!!!!!!!  :{:{: ***(**& ***(**& ***(**& ***(**& ***(**& ***(**&
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Geezer Glide Taz on January 20, 2009, 02:26:08 PM
Hey Preach, let me ask this once again:

Does your knowledge of the "military mentality" reflect your belief that "the military will be professional enough to deal with homosexuals serving openly in the military"?
I will answer this as a retiree. Yes I think the Army can overcome this. It overcame allowing black to coexist, when everyone said it would not work. I overcame men and women working together in the same units, when everyone said it would never work. Yes, the old timers will grumble, and yes there will be isolated incidents but a few narrow minded people that will not accept it, but just like everything else, the military we adapt, overcome and move on.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Geezer Glide Taz on January 20, 2009, 02:36:27 PM

The physical requirements should be different for someone in the infantry and someone in supply. Not all jobs are in the field. Paperwork has to be done too. I just think it is crazy to kick out a career soldier after 15 years for being eight pounds overweight. Certainly they could have found something he could have done.
There is a reason why every soldier has to maintain a certain weight and physical condition. There are no easy jobs that don't require this. If you remember, it was a supply convoy that got attacked, and captured and killed a few soldiers, who were not prepared for combat, because they were REMF or POGs. Now the army is changing how truck drivers and transportation units train and are outfitted.
The old days of having a front line are over. In an insurgent war which we will be fighting for quite a few more years, the enemy is everywhere, so therefore all soldiers, regardless of what duty position they hold, must be prepared to fight as infantry, and be physically fit to do so.
The way we will be fighting wars has changed. There are no more massive armies that we will meet on the battle field, they will all be under resourced terrorist type units that will attack at will anywheres on the battlefield. These means there are no more REMFs or POGs as you never know who or where the next battle will be.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: BigRedHouse on January 20, 2009, 02:41:58 PM
Good points Taz...

The Army will over come...the question is how long will it take.

as for physical standards.....everyone that joins is primarily an infantfyman.  That is what the "basic" training is for....to teach basic infantry skills.  The rest is advanced training.  Your job position is no excuse to be unfit.  If it was, there would have to be different standards within the infantry for those in the field and those serving in the S3 shop....not all infantry guys are on the ground geting boots dirty.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: prE4chEr on January 21, 2009, 06:18:29 AM
There are no more massive armies that we will meet on the battle field, they will all be under resourced terrorist type units that will attack at will anywheres on the battlefield.

You honestly believe we will never see another war with massive armies? Just wondering.
 
 
These means there are no more REMFs or POGs as you never know who or where the next battle will be.

There will always be POGs. I'd like to see a supply soldier go in a bar full of infantrymen and give them your argument.
 
True story. When freethinker got out of the military, me and a couple of buddies picked him up. We stayed the night at some baracks bunnies house, and went to a bar with a few of his battle buddies. My friend Jay was sitting at the end of the bar talking to this soldier about being a Sapper. He was saying that Sappers are equivelent to Rangers and yada yada. Well, the guy he was talking to got real pissed. He started to yell, and Jay yelled back. You should have seen the crowd gather behind the infantry guy. They were ready to kick our butt. The only thing that saved us was that the bartender really liked freethinker. Freethinker tips well. She got security to throw the other guys out. She really saved us that night.
 
If they get mad about sappers thinking they are grunts, then they will get really mad at a truck driver for saying it.
 
 
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Geezer Glide Taz on January 21, 2009, 02:18:01 PM

You honestly believe we will never see another war with massive armies? Just wondering.
 
 
There will always be POGs. I'd like to see a supply soldier go in a bar full of infantrymen and give them your argument.
 
True story. When freethinker got out of the military, me and a couple of buddies picked him up. We stayed the night at some baracks bunnies house, and went to a bar with a few of his battle buddies. My friend Jay was sitting at the end of the bar talking to this soldier about being a Sapper. He was saying that Sappers are equivelent to Rangers and yada yada. Well, the guy he was talking to got real pissed. He started to yell, and Jay yelled back. You should have seen the crowd gather behind the infantry guy. They were ready to kick our butt. The only thing that saved us was that the bartender really liked freethinker. Freethinker tips well. She got security to throw the other guys out. She really saved us that night.
 
If they get mad about sappers thinking they are grunts, then they will get really mad at a truck driver for saying it.
 
 
If you think the the grunts have the monopoly on bar fights, you have not seen all there is to see about the Army. When I was stationed in germany in the 70s, The 275Th Engineer used to have weekly rumbles with the MP unit there in Stuttgart.
In Hanau, on old labeau Strasse, the Engineer and Artillery used to wear out the infantry.

What I am trying to say, there is no specific MOS or branch that was the best at bar fights. It depend on where you are stationed. Bragg naturally will be rangers, and SF, but i can guarantee the sappers mix it up just fine with the rest of the population.

If you go to Hood, now you bring an Armor mix into it, and I have seen those boys group and clear a bar.  I don't think it has anything to do with a certain MOS, I think it has to do with attrition. Who ever has the most there wins!
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Coyote on January 21, 2009, 02:20:02 PM
I'm so impressed.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: igahmah at work on January 21, 2009, 03:22:22 PM
Last night watching all the festivities in DC I saw the Inaguration Ball for the military people.  Quite cute, Obama and Michelle both danced with enlisted military people.  But the thing I wanted to comment on was the reporter was saying how she had talked to a lot of military people in the crowd and some of the things they said were (of course she didn't list them all at once, this was over the period of time they were at that ball) 1. The soldiers all said they had great respect for Bush but now they would shift their respect to the new Commander in Chief. 2. They "hoped" the "don't ask don't tell" provision would stay in place.
3.  They want the troops to stay in Iraq until the mission is complete and their mission as they see it is rebuilding the country, not necessarily fighting a way.
Title: Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
Post by: Coyote on January 21, 2009, 03:25:08 PM
Maybe that was the reason President Obama wanted only junior officers and enlisted invited first and foremost.  Get a real idea of what is going on, instead of the senior "yes men" whose opinion isn't theirs anymore.

Last night watching all the festivities in DC I saw the Inaguration Ball for the military people.  Quite cute, Obama and Michelle both danced with enlisted military people.  But the thing I wanted to comment on was the reporter was saying how she had talked to a lot of military people in the crowd and some of the things they said were (of course she didn't list them all at once, this was over the period of time they were at that ball) 1. The soldiers all said they had great respect for Bush but now they would shift their respect to the new Commander in Chief. 2. They "hoped" the "don't ask don't tell" provision would stay in place.
3.  They want the troops to stay in Iraq until the mission is complete and their mission as they see it is rebuilding the country, not necessarily fighting a way.