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Author Topic: Don't Ask-Don't Tell  (Read 14801 times)

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Offline Coyote

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2009, 04:40:53 PM »

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They would understand if they were prior service...But the others?  I'd bet most don't even know their spouse's MOS, let alone what an MOS is.  But they do know an LES and how much pay they should be receiving.
 

I am willing to bet that if you went on post and said that to some military wives, you would get an earfull. Seriously, how can you disrespect the women and men who stand by their spouse soldiers when they go to war? The military effects everyone in the immediate family of the soldier. It can't be avoided.
....and that night as the moon crossed the mountain, one more Coyote was heard...

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #91 on: January 16, 2009, 05:56:26 PM »
Clinton?  Detested would be the proper word.  He got what he gave.  No respect.  I suspect Obama will receive the same as he takes, with his signature, 25% of their budget

Offline contemplating

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2009, 06:35:12 PM »
I am really surprised nobody has touched on the legal and peripheral issues this could present.  Gay marriage and TriCare for instance.  I understand the personal biases but there are many more things to be considered I believe.

The rules governing spouses are written in the traditional man woman union.  What will be the impacts there?
"In order to be a leader of men, a man has to receive an education in his own country, among his own people, and to grow up in surroundings steeped with the traditions and psychology of his countrymen.  Not only did Western education not fulfill that condition, but it tended to wean a young man from the traditions and customs of his country."

King Abdulaziz ibn Saud...circa 1930
Cited by Ronald Lacey in "The Kingdom:  Arabia and the House of Saud"

Offline Vado Del Rio

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2009, 06:42:00 PM »
Perhaps TriCare would be required to schedule yearly rectal exams, who knows.......
 
 :th_thwhistling:

Offline kari

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #94 on: January 16, 2009, 06:53:38 PM »
From what I've seen, the VA uses "spouse"....
Proud to have served, US Army, WAC

Offline contemplating

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #95 on: January 16, 2009, 06:59:22 PM »
Perhaps TriCare would be required to schedule yearly rectal exams, who knows.......
 
 :th_thwhistling:

LOL - that was good   &&*)(*^(&
"In order to be a leader of men, a man has to receive an education in his own country, among his own people, and to grow up in surroundings steeped with the traditions and psychology of his countrymen.  Not only did Western education not fulfill that condition, but it tended to wean a young man from the traditions and customs of his country."

King Abdulaziz ibn Saud...circa 1930
Cited by Ronald Lacey in "The Kingdom:  Arabia and the House of Saud"

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #96 on: January 16, 2009, 07:26:10 PM »
Tell them to make sure there is only ONE hand on the shoulder then.

Offline Coyote

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #97 on: January 16, 2009, 07:44:36 PM »
Ewwww...lol
 
Tell them to make sure there is only ONE hand on the shoulder then.
....and that night as the moon crossed the mountain, one more Coyote was heard...

Offline wildman

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #98 on: January 16, 2009, 09:55:28 PM »
I have never been in the military but I have the utmost respect to those who have. How many gay women are there in the military? How many gay men? I would assume the percentage is very low (1% or less) but I may be wrong. Are these individuals gay prior to military or do they become gay after entering the military?

Offline ex-ed

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #99 on: January 16, 2009, 10:18:26 PM »
I have never been in the military but I have the utmost respect to those who have. How many gay women are there in the military? How many gay men? I would assume the percentage is very low (1% or less) but I may be wrong. Are these individuals gay prior to military or do they become gay after entering the military?

I don't think they can get accurate stats on the numbers currently serving, because anyone admitting their gay status is immediately processed out, not counted. My own estimate when I was serving on active duty (using the SWAG* method) was somewhere between 3 and 5 percent.
* Scientific Wild-Ass Guess
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Offline kari

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #100 on: January 16, 2009, 11:35:47 PM »
I have never been in the military but I have the utmost respect to those who have. How many gay women are there in the military? How many gay men? I would assume the percentage is very low (1% or less) but I may be wrong. Are these individuals gay prior to military or do they become gay after entering the military?
Ah, homosexuals like heterosexuals are born that way..... Who in the world would wake up one day and say, "I think I want to be homosexual, possibly lose my family, friends, get thrown out of the military, get physically assaulted by homophobics, AND get discriminated against"?
Proud to have served, US Army, WAC

Offline fish

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #101 on: January 17, 2009, 01:31:44 AM »
nope again kari. we had this conversation already. there is no gay gene. it is a lifestyle choice.

another problem with gay marriage in the military,spouse benefits when there is a divorce.

Offline lobo4

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #102 on: January 17, 2009, 02:04:50 AM »
How do you know it is a choice when you yourself are heterosexual? How could you presume to know what a person feels their entire life? Kari is correct in saying why in the world would someone just say hey I want to be gay. Who are we to say what feels right to someone else.
In the end we will not only remember the words of our enemies but the silence of our friends...

Offline fish

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #103 on: January 17, 2009, 02:17:03 AM »
there is no proven gay gene. it is a lifestyle choice. it has not been proven otherwise. why are gays able to change and live hetrosexual lifestyles?

Offline kari

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #104 on: January 17, 2009, 06:16:06 AM »
How do you know it is a choice when you yourself are heterosexual? How could you presume to know what a person feels their entire life? Kari is correct in saying why in the world would someone just say hey I want to be gay. Who are we to say what feels right to someone else.
***(**& ***(**& ***(**& Gays can't change.... bisexuals may prefer one sex more than another, or fall in love with either sex, but someone who is homosexual is ALWAYS homosexual!  No different than a heterosexual.  You are what you are!  The only so called homosexuals that announce they "changed", are promoting a religious belief... I have yet to hear of a homosexual that "changed" who wasn't pushing their religion....... 
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Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #105 on: January 17, 2009, 06:37:00 AM »
I looked into this gay soldier issue a few years ago when Fort Leonard Wood had one of the highest discharge rates in the entire Army for homosexuals. There were allegations made that our post commander at the time had created a climate that encouraged homosexual discharges.
 
The reality was very different.
 
It turns out the places that have the highest rates of gay discharge are basic training posts. And how do these people get discharged for being gay? Not because the post commander created a climate of subverting "don't ask, don't tell," but rather because trainees tell their drill sergeant they're gay as a way to get out of the Army when they can't put up with basic training anymore.
 
Over the years I've repeatedly heard the same pattern told to me by drill sergeants and basic training company commanders who have to begin the outprocessing paperwork. People who they had no prior reason to believe were homosexual tried to get out of the Army citing other excuses, and finally figure out that claiming to be homosexual is an automatic "get out of the Army by outing yourself" method. And since people who they strongly believe are homosexual sometimes do everything they can to stay in the Army, basic training drill sergeants and company commanders are confronted with the strange reality of people who probably are homosexual being retained while people who probably aren't homosexual are allowed to leave because they claim a sexual preference that probably isn't true.
 
I'm sure there are cases where people who really are homosexual get "outed" in various ways. I knew at least one female Marine Corps senior NCO who was very proud to have been a Marine and continued to display her Marine Corps sticker on her car even after she got turned in as a lesbian and forced out of the military. (I think she was allowed to retire with around 20 years of service, but I don't remember now for sure.) However, at least around here, it's not that the Army is trying to get rid of homosexuals, but rather that people are making claims to be homosexual because of the "benefit" those claims give them.
Darrell Todd Maurina
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Offline fish

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #106 on: January 17, 2009, 09:28:50 PM »
that is more common than some think darrell. it was an easy way to get out.

Offline prE4chEr

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #107 on: January 18, 2009, 08:59:30 AM »
Not because the post commander created a climate of subverting "don't ask, don't tell," but rather because trainees tell their drill sergeant they're gay as a way to get out of the Army when they can't put up with basic training anymore.

So you have looked into this right? Did you actually do your homework, or are you just basing your "facts" on hearsay and rumor? Did you investigate or at least call anyone accused of lying about their sexuality to get out of the military? If you haven't, you shouldn't have phrased your sentence as such. You should point out that it is an unsubstantiated claim by an individual unqualified to psychologically evaluate a person's sexuality.
 
Besides, I haven't once heard anyone say that basic training is tough. Everyone always says it is much easier than what they expected. A cake walk, as freethinker once put it.
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Offline matrsnot

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #108 on: January 18, 2009, 03:18:36 PM »
Basic is a cakewalk NOW.  There was a time when they actually had to work hard to become a soldier.  Now the Drill's have to mollycoddle the young ones.  Can't have them get their little feelings hurt can we?  I know the enemy will sure be careful not to hurt them too.  I see a large amount of trainees going into the Behavior Management Division EACH DAY.  They can't handle the few stressors put before them.  As for the original point of the thread. I put a few out for homosexuality.  And these were not people in basic training either.But, I had more than just their word on the subject.  Generally, if there was one, there was another there too and they both got out, together.  I won't go further into that.  There are other ways to send them home besides being labeled homosexual.  Inability to adapt to military life is a good one too.  But there have been many who tried to use this as a way to get out, and as a ruse, because they aren't quite in the country club atmosphere they expected.

Offline kari

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #109 on: January 18, 2009, 03:56:40 PM »
I am still very undecided on this subject.  I will say that I did not agree with co-ed basic, and was sad to see the WAC disbanded.  Though I feel strong about equal rights, I could not see women training in basic with the men.  The main reason was, I felt that the standards for basic would be lowered.  Either the standards were lowered to compensate, or women are not required to perform the same as the men?  Apparently it all worked out otherwise they (men and women) would have been separated again in basic.  For the women soldiers, I feel they lost connection with all of those that went before them, as the vast majority have no idea what the WAC was, how we were part of not only the WAC, but also the "regular" Army.  There was no such thing as "Behavior Management".  We had two lesbian Drill Sgts. who were much tougher on us (especially those not in their platoon), than our male Drill Sgt., not saying he wasn't rough on us either.  Basic training was not easy, but my fondest memories are those I have from basic training, our "pinning ceremony" at the WAC Chapel is still emotional for me, and the women that I went through basic with.  I am not only proud of serving in the U.S Army, but I am proud of serving as a WAC.  I know, times change, but I really feel our female soldiers are missing out on something that was special, just for us.
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Offline Vado Del Rio

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #110 on: January 18, 2009, 04:00:38 PM »
Most have no idea of what the term "cakewalk" means.

cakewalk
     n : a strutting dance based on a march; was performed in
         minstrel shows; originated as a competition among Black
         dancers to win a cake

 
 

Offline Vado Del Rio

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #111 on: January 18, 2009, 04:10:25 PM »
1. Something easily accomplished: Winning the race was a cakewalk for her.
2. A 19th-century public entertainment among African Americans in which walkers performing the most accomplished or amusing steps won cakes as prizes.

http://raw360.com/item/1933

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #112 on: January 18, 2009, 07:18:19 PM »
I did not and do not think basic training should be coed.  There are double standards (dual?) when it comes to the PT test alone and I believe the genders should be separated as they don't always keep their attention on required subject matter, but some on each other.  Just a short rant is all.  Not even that really.  JMHO

Offline kari

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #113 on: January 18, 2009, 07:47:25 PM »
They would understand if they were prior service...But the others?  I'd bet most don't even know their spouse's MOS, let alone what an MOS is.  But they do know an LES and how much pay they should be receiving.
I have to agree with Coyote!!  There are so many singles out there that know EXACTLY how much each pay grade is suppose to get, any reenlistment benefits, what benefits the spouses get, retirement benefits, etc., and "go after" those that "get the most"!  I was shocked when I first went on the dating scene.... there are sooooooooooooooo many men who are aware of my benefits!  As soon as a man starts asking about my military service in respect to my money, they are automatically deleted.

You will also find so many spouses (sorry to say, mainly women), who "wear their spouse's rank".  Way too many times (when I was in), I'd have some wife try to order me to do something.... "I'm (whatever rank)'s wife"!  I'd look at them and flat out tell them, well then you better tell your hubby what you want, because I'm not doing it.  I had one wife get sooooooo angry, and try to threaten me with an Article 15!  I just laughed at her, which in turn really pissed her off.  What she didn't realize was, in my MOS (at that time, don't know if things have since changed), I had final say in what I put my name to.  I could not be ordered to accept, or sign my name to anything that I rejected in accordance with the SOP.
Proud to have served, US Army, WAC

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #114 on: January 19, 2009, 03:13:21 PM »
So you have looked into this right? Did you actually do your homework, or are you just basing your "facts" on hearsay and rumor? Did you investigate or at least call anyone accused of lying about their sexuality to get out of the military? If you haven't, you shouldn't have phrased your sentence as such. You should point out that it is an unsubstantiated claim by an individual unqualified to psychologically evaluate a person's sexuality.

Preacher, I wrote this: "Over the years I've repeatedly heard the same pattern told to me by drill sergeants and basic training company commanders who have to begin the outprocessing paperwork."
 
Neither you nor I have ever served in the Army, though both of our fathers did, so this is obviously secondhand and not from personal observation of basic training behavior. However, it is not hearsay or rumor when I've been told this by the people (drill sergeants and basic training company commanders) who had to deal with this directly, and told the same thing repeatedly by numerous people about different events taking place with different trainees over a long period of time in many different basic training units and AIT units at many different posts.
 
The Army does not care about making a psychological evaluation of a person's sexuality so there is no data available to me or anyone else on whether these people are "real homosexuals" or just claiming to be gay. If you don't claim to be a homosexual and don't engage in homosexual activities and basically don't bother anybody with your homosexual orientation or homosexual practice (and yes, I do know there is a difference between orientation and practice) it's irrelevant to the Army. If you claim to be homosexual or your behavior becomes publicly known, you're out -- yes, the pun is intended.
 
But having said that, when you've got a male trainee whose major problem one week was fraternizing with the female trainees and two weeks later he's claiming to be gay and gets an automatic discharge for being gay, it doesn't take a person with a M.A. or Psy.D. to know somebody is likely gaming the system. Bisexual? Maybe. But there are more plausible explanations.
 
Personally I've got no problem with discharging these people. We've got an all-volunteer force, and there are major financial rewards for joining the military. Nobody is required to enlist. And if you're going to lie about being gay, what else will you lie about? Under don't-ask-don't-tell, all homosexuals have to do is keep his/her mouth shut and they can serve all the way to retirement with no problem at all. There are a lot of other things people can't talk about or do while wearing the uniform, and if the military believes that's necessary for good order and discipline, I think those of us in the civilian world need to accept that NCOs and officers probably know a lot better about what works than those of us who have never been through basic training or OBC.
Darrell Todd Maurina
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Offline fish

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #115 on: January 19, 2009, 06:55:19 PM »
well said darrell. especially the part" if they you about being gay, what else will you lie about". the military is a unique organization defending our freedom from bases all over the world , and in some very sensitive jobs. Rules and regulations must be obeyed.

Offline Vado Del Rio

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #116 on: January 20, 2009, 02:02:09 AM »
What I find most outrageous are the retirees who come out of the closet immediately upon retirement.  They now collect a tax payer funded retirement for 20-30 years of "erroneous" service.  While on active duty, many had to pass judgement on those accused of of adultery and similar violations of the UCMJ.  Moreover, they have the arrogance to voice their opinion about the issue even though they have ZERO credibility and NO integrity whatsoever!   Sorry, but I have much more respect for those who reveal their true colors, opinions, and beliefs, whether I agree or not.
 
Note: I'm a heterosexual retiree who served "legitimately" Carter thru Clinton.

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #117 on: January 20, 2009, 04:34:51 AM »
Heaven knows I'm not defending homosexuals, and those serving pre-1993 when President Clinton implemented don't-ask-don't-tell, I've got major problems with because in most if not all cases, they lied at some stage of joining the military or re-enlisting. (On the other hand, I've heard of cases years ago where boxes on forms were left blank by a recruiter who "forgot" to ask a question he knew would generate the wrong answers, and the recruit was told he'd basically be OK if nobody found out about his homosexual orientation or practice, in a de facto don't-ask-don't-tell policy that existed long before Clinton made it official.)

HOWEVER... Let's say a female athlete from a rural high school enlisted in 1986, transferred to the National Guard in 1990, went to college courtesy of the GI Bill and ROTC, became a commissioned officer in 1994, and returned to active duty. In her conservative rural upbringing homosexuality wasn't even considered, but during her years at a left-wing college she "discovered" her lesbian sexual orientation, got a lot of affirmation from fellow students and professors, but decided there's no problem serving in the military which affirms her equal rights as a woman and has a don't-ask-don't-tell rule that says as long as she doesn't tell anyone about her sexual preference and doesn't out herself or act in ways that damage unit cohesion, she's OK according to the regulations. Has she really done anything wrong if she "comes out" after retiring as a LTC in 2009, after repeated early promotions due to merit?

I'm hard-pressed to say that someone in that circumstance -- and I know several of them in the officer corps, including a few at the senior officer level regarding whom their sexual orientation is commonly assumed but never discussed -- has done something wrong according to DOD regs. I do know that I don't want anyone like that anywhere near me in a shower or a close environment, but I don't see how my strong views on that are backed up by current DOD regs.
 
(For reasons I think everybody will understand, I've deliberately changed the dates of enlistment, commissioning and retirement, though not by much -- so if there is a female LTC out there with those dates, it's **NOT** any of the several people I'm thinking of. I don't need a half-dozen angry calls from female officers thinking I've "outed" them.)

What I find most outrageous are the retirees who come out of the closet immediately upon retirement.  They now collect a tax payer funded retirement for 20-30 years of "erroneous" service.  While on active duty, many had to pass judgement on those accused of of adultery and similar violations of the UCMJ.  Moreover, they have the arrogance to voice their opinion about the issue even though they have ZERO credibility and NO integrity whatsoever!   Sorry, but I have much more respect for those who reveal their true colors, opinions, and beliefs, whether I agree or not.
 
Note: I'm a heterosexual retiree who served "legitimately" Carter thru Clinton.
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Offline prE4chEr

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #118 on: January 20, 2009, 05:29:17 AM »
But having said that, when you've got a male trainee whose major problem one week was fraternizing with the female trainees and two weeks later he's claiming to be gay and gets an automatic discharge for being gay, it doesn't take a person with a M.A. or Psy.D. to know somebody is likely gaming the system. Bisexual? Maybe. But there are more plausible explanations.

 
DTM, I'm rapidly beginning to suspect that you are an old man in your seventies who has no idea what homosexuals are like. (Like that one? I borrowed some of your words from another thread.)
 
It's common knowledge that homosexuals fraternize with women more than men. It's probably because they have more in common with them, and because they are more comfortable with them. That is how it is, how it was, and how it always will be. Gay men have a lot of female friends. If for no other reason, that is a very good reason to be open minded about homosexuality. Befriend a gay man, and he will talk you up to all of his generally amazing "girlfriends". Trust me on that one. Gay guys get the best women.
 
Also, if you are talking about sexual fraternization, that isn't uncommon for homosexuals either. There are a few reasons why gay men would have sex with women.
 
One is because they feel the need to overcompensate for their blatant homosexuality. If they are still in the closet, they feel the need to have a cover story. If they are constantly bringing women to bed, the family, friends, and coworkers are less likely to be suspicious. How can he be gay when I see him with a different woman every other week?
 
Another reason is that they may still be exploring their sexuality. They may be struggling with the fact they are homosexual, and want to try to enjoy sex with women so they can live a "normal" life. If sex with women can be fulfilling, maybe they can stop dreaming about men. It isn't uncommon for people struggling with their sexuality to experiment a bit. The gay men I know now were the guys in high school having the most sex with girls. It was pretty weird for me to find out one of my high school heroes was gay. He was having sex with every hot girl in school, but it turns out he was gay. I talked to him about it when he came out to me, and he said it was because he had to explore his sexuality. He knew he had feelings for men, but he wanted to try to have feelings for women. He wanted to try and have a "normal" life. Plus it would have been really hard for him to be the gay guy on the football team.
 
Basically what I am saying is that generally gay guys have a lot of sex with women early on in their lives. They are struggling with their sexuality, and the only way to fix the problem is to explore it. A guy fraternizing with women isn't enough to base an opinion on his sexuality. You don't know someone is gay until they tell you, or you walk in on them having gay sex.
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Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #119 on: January 20, 2009, 06:14:11 AM »
OK, Preacher, you've asked some legitimate questions and I see no reason not to tell you things most people I cover in my beat already know.

I'm in my forties, not my seventies, but considering that I'm married to a Korean from a culture where youth is not good and age is highly valued, perhaps I should consider your reference to my apparent advanced age as a compliment? LOL... ;-)

However, you are extremely wrong about me having "no idea what homosexuals are like." My home church is in the Greenwich Village neighborhood of New York City, within walking distance of the Stonewall site, and for many years it was the only evangelical church in the area. It has a strong outreach to the homosexual community and probably a quarter to a third of its members are ex-gays. And if that isn't enough to indicate that I might have a lot more familiarity with homosexuals than the average rural Missourian, most newspapers where I've worked had at least one very "out" homosexual on their staff, and often several of them, both male and female. I'm not very interested in stereotyping professions, but journalism has far more than its share of uncloseted gays.

You're not saying anything about "stereotypical" male homosexual behavior that I don't already know, including the high rate of promiscuity and other risky sexual practices (which I'm glad you brought up -- I wouldn't have had the same credibility you do on this issue), preference for female companions, and desire to "cover up" their homosexuality until they're secure enough in their orientation to be open about their practice.

I've known several "Log Cabin Republicans" (politically conservative homosexuals) who decided, I guess, to get to know me as a consevative evangelical to try to figure out what motivates a religious conservative to think the way I do, and I've known a number of lesbians in the media who believed -- correctly -- that I respect hard work and don't discriminate against successful professional women based on their gender. My mother put up with far too much garbage in the field of journalism back in the 1950s when women simply were not supposed to do things like be reporters, and I don't tolerate sexism in business.

But there is always going to be a distance there. Fundamentally, I believe that homosexual practices and desires are both sinful and I can't blame people for choosing friends who don't feel the way I do. While I will treat work colleagues professionally regardless of their sexuality, I guess a combination of my conviction that homosexuality is sinful and my visceral disgust for the mechanics of homosexuality keeps me from becoming more than professional friends with people who I sometimes respect a great deal as professional colleagues.


 
DTM, I'm rapidly beginning to suspect that you are an old man in your seventies who has no idea what homosexuals are like. (Like that one? I borrowed some of your words from another thread.)
 
It's common knowledge that homosexuals fraternize with women more than men. It's probably because they have more in common with them, and because they are more comfortable with them. That is how it is, how it was, and how it always will be. Gay men have a lot of female friends. If for no other reason, that is a very good reason to be open minded about homosexuality. Befriend a gay man, and he will talk you up to all of his generally amazing "girlfriends". Trust me on that one. Gay guys get the best women.
 
Also, if you are talking about sexual fraternization, that isn't uncommon for homosexuals either. There are a few reasons why gay men would have sex with women.
 
One is because they feel the need to overcompensate for their blatant homosexuality. If they are still in the closet, they feel the need to have a cover story. If they are constantly bringing women to bed, the family, friends, and coworkers are less likely to be suspicious. How can he be gay when I see him with a different woman every other week?
 
Another reason is that they may still be exploring their sexuality. They may be struggling with the fact they are homosexual, and want to try to enjoy sex with women so they can live a "normal" life. If sex with women can be fulfilling, maybe they can stop dreaming about men. It isn't uncommon for people struggling with their sexuality to experiment a bit. The gay men I know now, were the guys in high school having the most sex with girls. It was pretty weird for me to find out one of my high school heroes was gay. He was having sex with every hot girl in school, but it turns out he was gay. I talked to him about it when he came out to me, and he said it was because he had to explore his sexuality. He knew he had feelings for men, but he wanted to try to have feelings for women. He wanted to try and have a "normal" life. Plus it would have been really hard for him to be the gay guy on the football team.
 
Basically what I am saying is that generally gay guys have a lot of sex with women early on in their lives. They are struggling with their sexuality, and the only way to fix the problem is to explore it. A guy fraternizing with women isn't enough to base an opinion on his sexuality. You don't know someone is gay until they tell you, or you walk in on them having gay sex.
Darrell Todd Maurina
Check out the Pulaski County Daily News online newspaper at
http://www.pulaskicountyweb.com
Cell: (573) 433.6733 * FAX: (573) 774-2349
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