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Author Topic: Dear Congress  (Read 10661 times)

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Offline carpenter

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2009, 01:41:23 AM »

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Coyote.  If you have children in school, ask them about the US Constitution and what it means.  Including the Bill of Rights. Ask them about the history of this country, both good and bad. Perhaps you will find out something you didn't know about.  Ask them about whether or not they are learning ebonics as a second language.  Ask them about how Thanksgiving is an offensive holiday and Christmas is also.  The school system not only does not give a clear indication of the facts, it also tends to insure students are indoctrinated into the way the teachers feel.

I'm curious.  You stated that you have noone related to you who is in school right now if I read your prior post correctly.  Also curious to know if you KNOW anyone that teaches school.  I mean really know them enough to have open discussion with them regarding how they teach and what they believe. 
 
If your answer is yes to the latter of the two questions I would be hard pressed to believe your stance on indoctrination at the hands of a teacher. 
 
Why?  I'm married to one.  Plus....we have 4 children, who have all graduated and moved on with higher education.  I cannot recall ONE TIME during the entire educational process for all 4 of our children where your comment would of even made sense let alone lend merit to your statement. 
 
During our childrens education we had ok teachers, good teachers and some really kick A EXCELLENT teachers. 
 
I WILL state that I believe that there is too much interference with education to the extent that the teachers are so caught up in paperwork that they can't do what most of them love.  THAT IS TO TEACH.  Also they have to deal with some kids/parents that would make your head spin. 
 
Try having kids like that on a daily basis while you are trying to ensure that the other 20-30 kids in your class get a good quality education.  Alot of times their hands are tied and they have to deal with things the best they can. 
 
My spouse is not in teaching to make money.  With their education/intelligence/background they could be making easily triple the salary.  They are in it BECAUSE they love to teach. 
 
Don't lump educators into a onesizefitsyourdefinitionofwhatyouthinkisthetruth when it comes to education. 
 
Just my two cents....  having been there, done that...and I got the "t-shirts" to prove it. 
 
 
yeah whatever~*

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2009, 01:52:34 AM »
Been there and done that too.  Tell me.  Which books are being used these days?  I will modify to say I am not upset with OUR schools here.  Need to look at the big cities and what they "teach."  BTW, I was brought up by an educator and have seen the difference in what is taught now versus then.  So please don't get on a high horse about this.  I am making a statement about governmental interference with the school system and the control they have over materials and educators who impose their own interpretations and beliefs on students.  Has your spouse been asked to have students participate in the census next year yet?

Offline carpenter

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2009, 02:32:30 AM »
My spouse teaches in the Waynesville district but they have also taught in much larger districts that make this look like a 1A...  there was never an agenda that had to be followed with the exception of which book/edition they were using so I guess I still don't understand the point that you are trying to make. 

Truth be known, the larger districts that they taught in were much stricter with some of the issues that are besetting our local district. 

The main emphasis in this educators classroom is teaching subject matter and how to be a respectable human being that is responsible for their own actions.  Each child has unique qualities about them and it is the job of a good educator (and their parents) to see this and to try to benefit that child to the best of their capabilities. 

Unfortunately many parents don't step up to the plate in this regard...... 

As for the high horse...   I got a might ticked at the generalization..... 

and no census has been mentioned...  I would wager that the parents would/should give permission whether or not ...if it even becomes an issue.
yeah whatever~*

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2009, 03:57:47 PM »
A completely  privatized system will not work. As stated by someone before to many families would not be able to afford to send their children to school.  I believe current law requires all school age children (up to a certain age) are required to attend a school or have a formal home school program.  What are we gonna do take poor kids away and put parents in prison because they can't afford to send children to school?  We can't even get people to pay for their own health care in this country, how the heck will we get them to pay for educating their children?


The whole school thing, I feel we should go to a privitized system. You pay for the school you go to. The competition would lead to better teaching, due to the fact that a parent could send their child to any school they want. Just my opinion.
 
As far as the business end, businesses have ran the economy for ever, "capitalism." I just see our government trying to have too much business in what they need to leave alone. Socialism is not what this country was built on and there is no need to change now.

Offline fireman_jeff

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2009, 04:43:26 PM »
A completely  privatized system will not work. As stated by someone before to many families would not be able to afford to send their children to school.  I believe current law requires all school age children (up to a certain age) are required to attend a school or have a formal home school program.  What are we gonna do take poor kids away and put parents in prison because they can't afford to send children to school?  We can't even get people to pay for their own health care in this country, how the heck will we get them to pay for educating their children?


How is it any different paying to go to a certain school and paying taxes that go to the Missouri Department of Elementry Education?
I just feel that if there were more competition with schooling, children would get a better education.
1*

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2009, 06:42:33 PM »
Its different because the cost for those sending children to school would be very high.  Look at what a private school cost now.  Maybe I  am thinking privatization is something different than what you think it is.  I look at it as no more school taxes and everyone pays tuition.

I do agree that competition produces better results though.  It should somehow be incorporated in our public education system.

Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2009, 06:45:41 PM »

How is it any different paying to go to a certain school and paying taxes that go to the Missouri Department of Elementry Education?
I just feel that if there were more competition with schooling, children would get a better education.
This whole topic (as I think it really originated as a health care topic) is VERY difficult to ascertain what is best for individuals and us as a country.  On one hand, it does seem that we have accepted that it is a RIGHT for every child to have a free education (at least through high school).  On the other hand, we have NOT accepted that it is the right of every American to have health care.

And though having "universal" health care does have some socialistic leanings (imo), I don't know that's a bad thing in this case.  And to compare and contrast between the educational system may be a way for us to understand this more thoroughly.

With that in mind, if someone wants to forgo the public education system that is provided for them they have that elective; albeit homeschooling or a private school.  I'm starting to wonder if this same type of scenario would work with health care.  Basic health care provided for all but if you choose to pay for "private" care that would always be an option.  Again, I'm just thinking/wondering out loud as typically I am VERY against government becoming any larger or more potent than it already is.

Conversely, I know billions of dollars are sent to other countries to provide health care for their underprivileged while many in our country go without.

To me, the real problems that needs to be addressed with our health is; 1) the amount of money that doctors and hospitals have to spend to cover their liabilities through insurance and 2) the cost of prescription drugs.  Until these two things are revamped we will always pay more than is necessary for basic health care in the US.
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2009, 06:48:24 PM »
I do agree that competition produces better results though.  It should somehow be incorporated in our public education system.
I don't necessarily agree with regards to education.  For example, many inner city schools pay their teachers much more than our rural schools.  But just because they have "higher paid" teachers doesn't equal better educated students. 
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2009, 06:55:17 PM »
Higher pay does not necessarily equal competition.

The competition would be in attracting the students and their parents to your school.

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2009, 07:06:00 PM »
I agree with most of what you said here, except about many Americans go without health care.  I think many Americans choose to go without health care, though not necessarily on purpose.  Those that do not qualify for medicaid/medicare should have enough income to have their own plan. They may have to alter their spending habits and standard of living  though.  I believe many think that a nice car and nice house are more important than a good health care plan and I really don't care to pay for their plan for them.

This whole topic (as I think it really originated as a health care topic) is VERY difficult to ascertain what is best for individuals and us as a country.  On one hand, it does seem that we have accepted that it is a RIGHT for every child to have a free education (at least through high school).  On the other hand, we have NOT accepted that it is the right of every American to have health care.

And though having "universal" health care does have some socialistic leanings (imo), I don't know that's a bad thing in this case.  And to compare and contrast between the educational system may be a way for us to understand this more thoroughly.

With that in mind, if someone wants to forgo the public education system that is provided for them they have that elective; albeit homeschooling or a private school.  I'm starting to wonder if this same type of scenario would work with health care.  Basic health care provided for all but if you choose to pay for "private" care that would always be an option.  Again, I'm just thinking/wondering out loud as typically I am VERY against government becoming any larger or more potent than it already is.

Conversely, I know billions of dollars are sent to other countries to provide health care for their underprivileged while many in our country go without.

To me, the real problems that needs to be addressed with our health is; 1) the amount of money that doctors and hospitals have to spend to cover their liabilities through insurance and 2) the cost of prescription drugs.  Until these two things are revamped we will always pay more than is necessary for basic health care in the US.

Offline Chas

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2009, 07:08:56 PM »
Not only is it the right for free education. It's the law.

Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2009, 07:30:16 PM »
I agree with most of what you said here, except about many Americans go without health care.  I think many Americans choose to go without health care, though not necessarily on purpose.  Those that do not qualify for medicaid/medicare should have enough income to have their own plan. They may have to alter their spending habits and standard of living  though.  I believe many think that a nice car and nice house are more important than a good health care plan and I really don't care to pay for their plan for them.

I guess that's where we see things differently.  I don't think a young married couple making seven to ten bucks an hour has an extra $300-$400 a month to spend on ANYTHING.

Let's say they bring home a couple of grand a month between them.
Rent= $500
Utilities= $150
Food= $300
Vehicle(s)=$300
Fuel= $250

That leaves around $500 month.  We haven't even included clothing, child care, savings for emergencies, etc.  And I sure don't know many 20 year olds that are gonna spend their only expendable income on health insurance.

To me (and at the risk of sounding socialistic), in our day and age NO ONE should be without an opportunity at health care just as no one should be without opportunity at a reasonable education.
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2009, 07:39:01 PM »
Higher pay does not necessarily equal competition.

The competition would be in attracting the students and their parents to your school.
And therefore the children of parents that can't pay as much would have to go to a "lesser" school which would create an even larger inequity in education and social status, correct?
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2009, 07:45:30 PM »
exactly why I said the competition needs to created in the public school system.  I am not sure how this can be done fairly, in the city's it would be much easier than in rural areas.

And therefore the children of parents that can't pay as much would have to go to a "lesser" school which would create an even larger inequity in education and social status, correct?

Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2009, 07:56:32 PM »
exactly why I said the competition needs to created in the public school system.  I am not sure how this can be done fairly, in the city's it would be much easier than in rural areas.

Here's the prob (as I see it):  Say you "reward" schools that are producing better students, scores, etc.  Somewhere down the line the "rewarded" schools truly start producing more more and the schools that weren't rewarded start suffering more and more.  This seems to be a slippery slope to me.

Also, saying a school is doing better because they test better isn't necessarily a true statement.

"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2009, 07:59:12 PM »
but in that scenario they do have an opportunity at health care.  They chose to pay 300 for a car, instead.  A family of two doesn't need to spend $300 a month on food either, I have four in my household and spend 250 a month plus we have extra mouths almost every weekend.

But in fairness a couple that age probably doesn't need health insurance until they are ready to start having children.

I just don't think Americans have their priorities in the right place anymore.  And don't not take pride in taking care of themselves like earlier generations in this country did.

If someone really needs help I am all for giving it to them, but they shouldn't be driving better cars and living in better homes and in general be enjoying a better lifestyle than the people giving them the help.

I guess that's where we see things differently.  I don't think a young married couple making seven to ten bucks an hour has an extra $300-$400 a month to spend on ANYTHING.

Let's say they bring home a couple of grand a month between them.
Rent= $500
Utilities= $150
Food= $300
Vehicle(s)=$300
Fuel= $250

That leaves around $500 month.  We haven't even included clothing, child care, savings for emergencies, etc.  And I sure don't know many 20 year olds that are gonna spend their only expendable income on health insurance.

To me (and at the risk of sounding socialistic), in our day and age NO ONE should be without an opportunity at health care just as no one should be without opportunity at a reasonable education.

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2009, 08:06:19 PM »
Well I never said it would be easy and I don't have the answer to make it work.  There is many people out there much smarter than me that could figure it out.  I in no way think that there is going to be a perfect solution either, if there were I'm sure we would be doing it already.

I agree testing isn't the answer, though it may be a part of it.  I think that somehow we need to make the school system more accountable to the parents and tax payers rather than to the government by test scores and graduation rates.

Here's the prob (as I see it):  Say you "reward" schools that are producing better students, scores, etc.  Somewhere down the line the "rewarded" schools truly start producing more more and the schools that weren't rewarded start suffering more and more.  This seems to be a slippery slope to me.

Also, saying a school is doing better because they test better isn't necessarily a true statement.

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2009, 08:10:13 PM »
 I am not saying reward schools, I am saying let parents and students decide which school they want to attend and then give that school the funding, but transportation does present some problems in that kind of system

Here's the prob (as I see it):  Say you "reward" schools that are producing better students, scores, etc.  Somewhere down the line the "rewarded" schools truly start producing more more and the schools that weren't rewarded start suffering more and more.  This seems to be a slippery slope to me.

Also, saying a school is doing better because they test better isn't necessarily a true statement.



Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2009, 08:11:41 PM »
but in that scenario they do have an opportunity at health care.  They chose to pay 300 for a car, instead.  A family of two doesn't need to spend $300 a month on food either, I have four in my household and spend 250 a month plus we have extra mouths almost every weekend.


The $300 I put vehicle(s) could have been for two vehicles, plus insurance, plus maintenance.  I don't think that's out of reason even for two cars that are paid off.

$250 a month for 4?  Really?  Wow, that must be commissary prices, without tax because I know I spend $300 for only two (and that's only $5 a person a day).
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2009, 08:14:09 PM »
I am not saying reward schools, I am saying let parents and students decide which school they want to attend and then give that school the funding, but transportation does present some problems in that kind of system

Yeah, we tried that in the 60's... it was called busing and it didn't work too well either.

But you are right.... this is a very complex situation with no simple answers!
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2009, 08:21:05 PM »
Yes it is commissary most of the time, but you can get many things for less than the commissary at other stores if you watch sales and use store brands instead of name brands.  We don't buy much prepared food.  It does require a little more effort to prepare meals than taking it out of the cabinet or freeser and heating it up,but is also much better for you I think.

I have 2 paid off vehicles and liabilty insurance is about 60 a month, of course maintenance varies but seldom is it more than 100 a month and about 200 a month for fuel, sometimes more.

The $300 I put vehicle(s) could have been for two vehicles, plus insurance, plus maintenance.  I don't think that's out of reason even for two cars that are paid off.

$250 a month for 4?  Really?  Wow, that must be commissary prices, without tax because I know I spend $300 for only two (and that's only $5 a person a day).

Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2009, 08:23:31 PM »
I am not saying reward schools, I am saying let parents and students decide which school they want to attend and then give that school the funding,

Also, we kinda already have this system intact as schools are paid a "per Diem" (if you will) for each student that attends. If you want your kids to go to a certain school district then you have to MOVE to that district.

And that's why, (educators correct me if I'm wrong) many times schools will cancel classes if large numbers of students can't attend due to weather, illnesses, etc because the local school district then loses money because of the high amount of absentees!
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2009, 08:24:33 PM »
I am not sure what was done in the 60's is quite the same, it was to equal school population out along racial lines, not to let parents and students choose a school they thought was better for their situation and education.

Yeah, we tried that in the 60's... it was called busing and it didn't work too well either.

But you are right.... this is a very complex situation with no simple answers!


Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #53 on: September 02, 2009, 08:26:23 PM »

I have 2 paid off vehicles and liabilty insurance is about 60 a month, of course maintenance varies but seldom is it more than 100 a month and about 200 a month for fuel, sometimes more.

But you're not 20 anymore are ya!  LOL!  I'm guessing liability only on 20 year old is gonna be close to $75-100 month for each vehicle.
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #54 on: September 02, 2009, 08:29:54 PM »
Moving is an option, but can be quite expensive.  What if a school declines after you bought a house based on the school system, which some people do i'm sure.

I'd like to think they cancel classes for the students safety rather than the ideal of losing money due to absenteeism.
Also, we kinda already have this system intact as schools are paid a "per Diem" (if you will) for each student that attends. If you want your kids to go to a certain school district then you have to MOVE to that district.

And that's why, (educators correct me if I'm wrong) many times schools will cancel classes if large numbers of students can't attend due to weather, illnesses, etc because the local school district then loses money because of the high amount of absentees!

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #55 on: September 02, 2009, 08:34:32 PM »
Well that's very true, I am definitely not 20 anymore.  But I didn't have 2 vehicles when I was 20 either, didn't have 2 until I could afford them.  First wife and I had to find car pools and give each other ride until we could afford 2 vehicles.

But you're not 20 anymore are ya!  LOL!  I'm guessing liability only on 20 year old is gonna be close to $75-100 month for each vehicle.

Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #56 on: September 02, 2009, 08:36:05 PM »
I am not sure what was done in the 60's is quite the same, it was to equal school population out along racial lines, not to let parents and students choose a school they thought was better for their situation and education.

Very true, but my point was if left to the parents, the ones that are more financially sound would spend whatever necessary to get their kids to the "better" school.  When in fact the priority should be to bring the "lesser" school up to the same standards.

I think we agree much more than we disagree here.  To me the old adage "all men are created equal" has been misunderstood for far too long.  We may all be equal in the eyes of our Creator but that doesn't mean that we are equally talented or equally educable (even though my school district's motto was: "Every child can learn given enough time and opportunity"). 
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #57 on: September 02, 2009, 08:43:25 PM »
I'd like to think they cancel classes for the students safety rather than the ideal of losing money due to absenteeism.

School administrators have a VERY difficult and trying job.  But no matter how often they might put the students first, if their budget keeps going deeper and deeper in the red their concern for students isn't as much a priority to their boards anymore!
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #58 on: September 02, 2009, 08:44:00 PM »
I agree that we mostly agree, like I said I do not have the answers but I think there must be something better than what our government is providing at this time as far as education, and what they are trying to implement as far as health care reform.

I think they should be working on lowering the cost of the actual health care and insuring the programs we already have are not being abused thus maybe being able to expand them to more people.  I've rarley seen where throwing bunches of money at a problem actually fixes it.

 
Very true, but my point was if left to the parents, the ones that are more financially sound would spend whatever necessary to get their kids to the "better" school.  When in fact the priority should be to bring the "lesser" school up to the same standards.

I think we agree much more than we disagree here.  To me the old adage "all men are created equal" has been misunderstood for far too long.  We may all be equal in the eyes of our Creator but that doesn't mean that we are equally talented or equally educable (even though my school district's motto was: "Every child can learn given enough time and opportunity"). 

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #59 on: September 02, 2009, 08:48:26 PM »
I agree they along with the teachers have a very difficult job, and I have great respect for them choosing do do it for so little financial reward.

But please don't ruin my little utopia where they do everything with the kids first in mind.  LOL

School administrators have a VERY difficult and trying job.  But no matter how often they might put the students first, if their budget keeps going deeper and deeper in the red their concern for students isn't as much a priority to their boards anymore!