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Author Topic: Dear Congress  (Read 10297 times)

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Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #60 on: September 02, 2009, 08:50:24 PM »

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"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #61 on: September 02, 2009, 08:53:06 PM »
gotta get off here for now thanks for the intelligent conversation.

Offline fireman_jeff

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #62 on: September 02, 2009, 10:56:34 PM »
Quick question. Why not make a tax rate that is the same across the state for education. Then you would not have to pay anymore than someone in St. Louis. Hell you could send your kid to a school in St. Louis if you want. The schools get paid by the amount of students they have, not what city they are in. It sounds like socialism, and the more I think about it, it might be. I do think it would work. Then, you make the parents sign an agreement for that student to stay in that school for the year. I know it would need alot more work than that, but I think it would work. I still vote for privitization.
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Offline fknarmyguyretired

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2009, 03:06:26 PM »
While making the tax rates for education uniform across the state sounds like a fair way to do it there are other things to consider such as the standard of living in different areas, the difference in property values, the median or average wage, and others.

What is really unfair about the way our schools are paid for now is that property owners pay school taxes on real estate so they are paying much more for education than someone that may have the same income, same number of school age children and not own property.

How do you define privatization for education purpose?

Quick question. Why not make a tax rate that is the same across the state for education. Then you would not have to pay anymore than someone in St. Louis. Hell you could send your kid to a school in St. Louis if you want. The schools get paid by the amount of students they have, not what city they are in. It sounds like socialism, and the more I think about it, it might be. I do think it would work. Then, you make the parents sign an agreement for that student to stay in that school for the year. I know it would need alot more work than that, but I think it would work. I still vote for privitization.

Offline fireman_jeff

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2009, 05:38:36 PM »
Well, it seems that everything the government touch goes broke. I'm sure the education system time is about up. If the schools were provided by priviate companies, and people chose which company (school) they wanted their goods (childs education) from that company would work hard to please. It is basic economics. If the school sucks it will not make any money and go broke. But that also creates a problem... This administration will give them a bailout and they are right back in business.
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Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #65 on: September 04, 2009, 01:50:32 AM »
What are the actual facts that they should be teaching?

If we went to privatized schools, there would be better teachers and they would likely teach actual facts and history, unlike the current government system whereby our children or grandchildren are being dumbed down with fallacious lies.  I have no children in the system, but do have grandchildren already in or about to begin school.  I pay taxes for them to get a real education and I expect them to get one.

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #66 on: September 04, 2009, 10:08:33 PM »
Let's be fair, everybody. What Critter is describing here is the idea behind cash-for-clunkers -- providing an incentive to take major gashogs off the road and replace them with vehicles that are less expensive to drive that have a major uptick in mileage will in the relatively short run benefit not only the driver but also save fuel and reduce pollution.

In addition, Critter bought an American-made car to put Americans back to work in a seriously troubled industry.

There are three problem with Cash for Clunkers.

First, far too often the mileage increase wasn't threefold like this increase from 8 mph to 28 mph.

Second, often the car purchased wasn't American-made.I understand that the trade treaties we have signed prevented limiting purchases with the program to American-made cars only, but we have just spent huge amounts of American tax money to support foreign automakers.

Third, Cash-for-Clunkers represented massive additional money piled into the already-exploding national debt.

The program might have been helpful national policy if those three problems could have been solved. As it is, however, it looks like Critter made good use of a program that many others did not use in ways that were anywhere near as good.

cash for clunkers was a huge success..they added more money because it worked so well.  and i now own a new car which i never would of had the chance of doing if not for the program.  it gets 28mpg my old truck  only got 8.  i had a 150 a month payment on the clunker i had...the money i save a month on gas will make up the differance on my new payment and i have peace of mind knowing i will get to and from where ever i decide to go.  whom ever idea it was is F$#@ Brillant!  and i hope they do it again soon
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Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #67 on: September 04, 2009, 10:30:54 PM »
Another problem Darrell, is that the CforC deal has driven the price of used cars and trucks up as many that were very road worthy are now headed for the scrap yard instead of being on the open market which drives the supply of said cars DOWN!

As someone who does this for my livelihood I can tell you that CofC may have helped some individuals, it appears to have helped Ford (but not GM and Chrysler), it helped Toyota and Honda but it has hurt many other small businesses throughout the nation.  And this administration continues to show a propensity to help the big and let the small suffer (irregardless of what the Democratic platform is).

Additionally, this program has almost busted many stable new car dealerships as they are still yet to be "refunded" by the government what they had to invest in each of these "clunkers" (can you imagine being a large dealership taking in a couple of hundred clunkers and being OUT a million dollars or more with the government promising that the check is in the mail?).  And on top of that, we've yet to see how many cars and trucks that were supposed to meet the qualifying terms that somehow don't at the end of the day.

The program was an absolute BUST, imo.  And the fact that 2 billion of yours and my tax dollars went to fund this really gets me steaming!

PS - In a somewhat related story, did anyone read about the HUGE oil find in the Gulf by BP?
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline Lepard LLC

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #68 on: September 04, 2009, 10:54:32 PM »
Just a drop in the bucket compares to US consumption.
And it is British. Bah Humbug
 
 
Another problem Darrell, is that the CforC deal has driven the price of used cars and trucks up as many that were very road worthy are now headed for the scrap yard instead of being on the open market which drives the supply of said cars DOWN!

As someone who does this for my livelihood I can tell you that CofC may have helped some individuals, it appears to have helped Ford (but not GM and Chrysler), it helped Toyota and Honda but it has hurt many other small businesses throughout the nation.  And this administration continues to show a propensity to help the big and let the small suffer (irregardless of what the Democratic platform is).

Additionally, this program has almost busted many stable new car dealerships as they are still yet to be "refunded" by the government what they had to invest in each of these "clunkers" (can you imagine being a large dealership taking in a couple of hundred clunkers and being OUT a million dollars or more with the government promising that the check is in the mail?).  And on top of that, we've yet to see how many cars and trucks that were supposed to meet the qualifying terms that somehow don't at the end of the day.

The program was an absolute BUST, imo.  And the fact that 2 billion of yours and my tax dollars went to fund this really gets me steaming!

PS - In a somewhat related story, did anyone read about the HUGE oil find in the Gulf by BP?

Offline fireman_jeff

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #69 on: September 04, 2009, 11:38:17 PM »
Another question... How many mechanics have seen a decrease in work due to these cars being crushed rather than going down the road? Just a question.
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Offline CriTTer

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2009, 12:12:30 AM »
Another question... How many mechanics have seen a decrease in work due to these cars being crushed rather than going down the road? Just a question.
my GF's car was needing work done,,,sandmans had 40 cars in line to be fixed and it would be 2 weeks to get it in   swensons was quickier but also have a steady flow of repairs they are doing ,  they are not hurting 1 bit.....and i was looking at the specs on my new car, all was made in america except the transmission, it was made in Japan.
my truck i turned in was a 6 cylinder..it was why i only got 3500..8's were getting the 4500 rebates.....my old truck when it came out was suppose to get 16mpg so that is what it went by..i had to get a car that got better then that to qualify

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #71 on: September 05, 2009, 12:48:06 AM »
I am glad you were able to get that new car Critter.  Sincerely.  Hope it makes life better and easier for you.  sounds like you made a pretty good deal, depending on the payment schedule (which is none of my business and am not asking about).  And you are correct.  I drove by Sandman's today and they were certainly not hurting for business.

Offline okie the thread killer

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #72 on: September 05, 2009, 12:52:16 AM »
and you cannot get in to action.
I have it on good authority that the Hokey-Pokey really IS what it's all about.

Offline CriTTer

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #73 on: September 05, 2009, 04:02:18 AM »
Another problem Darrell, is that the CforC deal has driven the price of used cars and trucks up as many that were very road worthy are now headed for the scrap yard instead of being on the open market which drives the supply of said cars DOWN!

As someone who does this for my livelihood I can tell you that CofC may have helped some individuals, it appears to have helped Ford (but not GM and Chrysler), it helped Toyota and Honda but it has hurt many other small businesses throughout the nation.  And this administration continues to show a propensity to help the big and let the small suffer (irregardless of what the Democratic platform is).

Additionally, this program has almost busted many stable new car dealerships as they are still yet to be "refunded" by the government what they had to invest in each of these "clunkers" (can you imagine being a large dealership taking in a couple of hundred clunkers and being OUT a million dollars or more with the government promising that the check is in the mail?).  And on top of that, we've yet to see how many cars and trucks that were supposed to meet the qualifying terms that somehow don't at the end of the day.

The program was an absolute BUST, imo.  And the fact that 2 billion of yours and my tax dollars went to fund this really gets me steaming!

PS - In a somewhat related story, did anyone read about the HUGE oil find in the Gulf by BP?
  what is there to invest...the cars sit in the back lot until the goverment sends a check, which by the way the are sending out as promised.   the dealerships are out nothing and have reaped from the sales of 700,000 new cars and trucks...the reason ford did well was because of other rebates they had in place ontop of the 4500  one for 1000 and another for 1500,  that is 7000 off a new car..another 500 if you were trading in a ford for a ford. 
 if you look at the clunkers in the lots there are some nice looking late 90's trucks but if the milage is poor then they should be in a scrap pile...most are trash tho

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #74 on: September 05, 2009, 11:31:44 AM »
Better question... how often do you find a mechanic who is honest who won't charge you a stupid amount for basic work...

Another question... How many mechanics have seen a decrease in work due to these cars being crushed rather than going down the road? Just a question.

Offline Seeg

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #75 on: September 05, 2009, 01:34:13 PM »
  what is there to invest...the cars sit in the back lot until the goverment sends a check, which by the way the are sending out as promised.   the dealerships are out nothing and have reaped from the sales of 700,000 new cars and trucks...the reason ford did well was because of other rebates they had in place ontop of the 4500  one for 1000 and another for 1500,  that is 7000 off a new car..another 500 if you were trading in a ford for a ford. 
 if you look at the clunkers in the lots there are some nice looking late 90's trucks but if the milage is poor then they should be in a scrap pile...most are trash tho
Critter,
I also am glad you personally got to reap the benefits of this program.... as I said the program DID help the individuals that were able to participate. As for the dealerships being out nothing, let me explain how a dealership works. 

When a dealer is delivered vehicles from the manufacturer they are billed for those vehicles (usually about 1-2 weeks before they arrive).  The overwhelming amount of dealerships have a floorplan they are "charged" to.  When the vehicle sells and the MSO (Manufacturers Statement of Origin <aka title> is delivered to the customer the dealer has to PAY OFF the the floorplanned amount - usually within a few days.  So, if a dealer "borrowed" $13k for a vehicle, sells it for $14k and gives the C4C rebate of $4500 they are out $3500, from their own working capital (per vehicle), until they rec'v the C4C check from the government.  Additionally, there is usually lag time when rec'ving the factory rebates as well but this typically doesn't present as much problem for the dealerships (although last December GM dealerships went weeks without rec'ving the approved factory rebates from GM). Most dealership don't have that kind of working capital and some even had to borrow money until (if) they rec'v the amount "promised" by the gov.

As of two weeks ago, only 10% of the vehicles sold under this program had been rebated.  I haven't checked this week, but I would be surprised if the number was much over 20-25% now.

The other problem, from a dealership level, with the program was the confusion over which cars actually qualified.  The government should have set up a system using VIN numbers to "pre-qualify" the amount, if any, the used car would be rebated.  Instead, there were 20 pages of documents for each vehicle that had to be scanned and then transmitted to a gov web site for approval.  This process alone had some dealers seeing a 30% rejection rate because of "paperwork errors".  Also I know that some Chrysler van models qualified only if they had automatic transmissions but the manual transmission of the same year, make and model wouldn't qualify because the M/T got a mile or two better per gallon.

I hope you can see that the dealerships were betting on the come here.  And it may pay off very well in the end - if every car they rebated does actually get rebated.  On the other hand, I know some local dealerships that didn't even really care to participate as it was a VERY risky program for them. It doesn't take may 3 to 4 grand losers to offset any profits from other deals.

The other issue for me is this was not only a program to STIMULATE sales but in the end it my guess it only SIMULATES sales..... taking a lump of customer and offering them over the top deals to get them to buy today therefore meaning taking them out of the natural buying process over the next months.  Mark my words, there will be a REAL hangover from the C4C program!

Here's some stories I found on the subject after I posted my response:

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/25/dealer-poll-calls-cash-for-clunkers-a-nightmare-4-out-of-10-d/

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=8485520

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32513641/ns/business-reinventing_america/

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/08/cash-for-clunkers-the-potential-downsides-and-unintended-conseq?icid=sphere_blogsmith_inpage_autoblog
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #76 on: September 05, 2009, 02:22:15 PM »
What are the actual facts that they should be teaching?


 Better check what they are NOT teaching.  About how this country was formed and the platforms used.  About the civil war and the real reasons for that war.  They are taught that this country is inheritantly evil and place such things as FDR's interment camps for the Japanese on an equal par with saving Europe at the end of WWII.  When you don't have an understanding of history, you are going to enjoy living it again.  We are there DN.  Hope we are not in for the night of the broken glass.  Take a look at current text books.  Viet Nam has about a paragraph in some of them.

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #77 on: September 07, 2009, 01:08:02 AM »
What platforms were used when this country was formed?  What would you put int the text book?

Better check what they are NOT teaching.  About how this country was formed and the platforms used.  About the civil war and the real reasons for that war.  They are taught that this country is inheritantly evil and place such things as FDR's interment camps for the Japanese on an equal par with saving Europe at the end of WWII.  When you don't have an understanding of history, you are going to enjoy living it again.  We are there DN.  Hope we are not in for the night of the broken glass.  Take a look at current text books.  Viet Nam has about a paragraph in some of them.

Offline okie the thread killer

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #78 on: September 07, 2009, 01:52:15 AM »
and are you for or against fdr...not clear there
I have it on good authority that the Hokey-Pokey really IS what it's all about.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2009, 09:48:23 AM »
Against FDR

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #80 on: September 07, 2009, 09:53:01 PM »
I guess you didn't like my question.  Or didn't want to answer it truthfully. 

I have a feeling its an old argument.

Against FDR

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2009, 06:04:14 PM »
I will play Arlen Specter.  Thank you for asking that question.  Next?  That is what the liberals do isn't it?   ;D

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Dear Congress
« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2009, 03:59:26 AM »
Thank you for the additional details, Seeg...

Another problem Darrell, is that the CforC deal has driven the price of used cars and trucks up as many that were very road worthy are now headed for the scrap yard instead of being on the open market which drives the supply of said cars DOWN!

As someone who does this for my livelihood I can tell you that CofC may have helped some individuals, it appears to have helped Ford (but not GM and Chrysler), it helped Toyota and Honda but it has hurt many other small businesses throughout the nation.  And this administration continues to show a propensity to help the big and let the small suffer (irregardless of what the Democratic platform is).

Additionally, this program has almost busted many stable new car dealerships as they are still yet to be "refunded" by the government what they had to invest in each of these "clunkers" (can you imagine being a large dealership taking in a couple of hundred clunkers and being OUT a million dollars or more with the government promising that the check is in the mail?).  And on top of that, we've yet to see how many cars and trucks that were supposed to meet the qualifying terms that somehow don't at the end of the day.

The program was an absolute BUST, imo.  And the fact that 2 billion of yours and my tax dollars went to fund this really gets me steaming!

PS - In a somewhat related story, did anyone read about the HUGE oil find in the Gulf by BP?
Darrell Todd Maurina
Check out the Pulaski County Daily News online newspaper at
http://www.pulaskicountyweb.com
Cell: (573) 433.6733 * FAX: (573) 774-2349
Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/darrellmaurina/
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