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          Offline ECOGEEK54

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #17 on: September 15, 2008, 04:21:34 PM »
          The end messed up there, but ya get the point

          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #18 on: September 15, 2008, 07:10:08 PM »
          I'm a little confused (scratching head) are you trying to convince me that I don't like or approve of science? I have used nothing but science to prove my points. Much of it should be understood as theories not "fact" was my point. And yes I believe more people have been healed by God than all the doctors on earth. Oh and "what the" show me how the speed of light has been proven to be a constant. Like many wanna be scientists you have confused E=MC2 and the fact that we cannot exceed the speed of light with it being a constant. And ECO;  Um..... thanks for the list of sciences?
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline What_The?

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #19 on: September 15, 2008, 08:07:55 PM »
          I'm a little confused (scratching head) are you trying to convince me that I don't like or approve of science? I have used nothing but science to prove my points. Much of it should be understood as theories not "fact" was my point. And yes I believe more people have been healed by God than all the doctors on earth. Oh and "what the" show me how the speed of light has been proven to be a constant. Like many wanna be scientists you have confused E=MC2 and the fact that we cannot exceed the speed of light with it being a constant. And ECO;  Um..... thanks for the list of sciences?

          The speed of light is one of the fundamental constants of the universe. 

          Like Plank's constant. 

          If you think I am confusing the speed of light and e=mc2, you are wrong.

          You do not understand, nor will you ever understand, just how wrong your "science" is because it is not science, it is faith. 

          The conclusions are not supported by facts, they are hoped for in order to support the written accounts of some Arabs living in the Middle East about 1600 years ago.
          "There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #20 on: September 15, 2008, 08:50:43 PM »
          I say the speed of light is not a constant. Prove me wrong!
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline What_The?

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #21 on: September 15, 2008, 09:13:35 PM »
          I say the speed of light is not a constant. Prove me wrong!

          Exactly my point. 

          You have zero understanding of science or the "science" you cut and paste.

          Thanks for playing, now leave the real discussions to the adults.
          "There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #22 on: September 15, 2008, 09:35:39 PM »
          Can't huh!
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline ECOGEEK54

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #23 on: September 16, 2008, 05:38:08 AM »
          Anything in a vacuum will be constant without any force affecting it, so the speed of light in a vacuum is constant, but when there are forces or items that the light hits, it slows it down.  OR if you take Einstein’s stand, it’s all relative.  Need more?

          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #24 on: September 16, 2008, 11:58:56 AM »
          Are you saying there's nothing or no "items" in space?  The current speed of light (and radio waves etc..) is measured at 299,792,458 M/S  Again; There is no law that can show this has always been the case. I feel like I'm talking to elementary school girls.
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #25 on: September 16, 2008, 02:25:56 PM »
          Why do scientists, and textbooks continue to imply that the Miller-Urey experiment shows how life could have developed when it actually uses an arbitrary and unrealistic set of conditions and produces amino acids which could not possibly lead to life? Only a few of the required amino acids have ever been produced and even those are an unusable mixture of stereotypes. Why was oxygen excluded, even though, rocks in the earth's crust indicate oxygen has always been present? Doesn't the origin of life remain a total mystery?
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline What_The?

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #26 on: September 16, 2008, 03:17:33 PM »
          Are you saying there's nothing or no "items" in space?  The current speed of light (and radio waves etc..) is measured at 299,792,458 M/S  Again; There is no law that can show this has always been the case. I feel like I'm talking to elementary school girls.

          Once again, cutting and pasting without understanding the fundamental principals of what you spout.

          You must truly be a sadist to keep asking to be beat down every day, but I recognize your type.

          Without the authority of someone else's intellect, you are naked and helpless and unable to function or think for yourself. 

          Without the authority of the Bible, you have none from yourself.

          You are weak intellectually and spiritually, in spite of all your bluster and bravado.

          Clearly you are trying to cover up your own weaknesses with the strength of others.

          Don't you see just how sad of a person you come across as?
          "There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #27 on: September 16, 2008, 06:15:51 PM »
          Got nothing again huh!  Do you really think your impressing anyone by hiding behind your computer and beat...trying to beat people down? Anyone can say I don't understand what I'm saying, PROVE IT!
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline What_The?

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #28 on: September 16, 2008, 06:30:35 PM »
          Got nothing again huh!  Do you really think your impressing anyone by hiding behind your computer and beat...trying to beat people down? Anyone can say I don't understand what I'm saying, PROVE IT!

          You prove it to everyone, post after sad post.
          "There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #29 on: September 16, 2008, 06:32:24 PM »
          OK anyone PROVE IT! "What The" obviously can't.
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

           

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          Author Topic: Stanley Miller  (Read 13862 times)

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          Offline mark

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          Stanley Miller
          « on: August 09, 2008, 02:11:08 PM »

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          A classic experiment used to support the belief that life "built itself" was first proposed in 1953 by Stanley Miller. In this experiment, sparks were discharged into an apparatus through which common gases were circulated. These gases reacted to form various organic products which were then collected and analyzed. The experiment succeeded in producing a (few) of the 20 amino acids required by living cells. These results have been heralded as proof that life could have arisen by itself. However, dozens of (major problems) with this experiment, (clearly understood for more than thirty years), still go unanswered and are not even mentioned to students. For instance, our early atmosphere is assumed to have had no oxygen because this would stop amino acid formation. However, with no oxygen, there would be no ozone shield. With no ozone shield, life would be impossible. The fact that oxidized rocks throughout the geological record indicate that oxygen has always been present is ignored. In addition, the same gases which can react to form amino acids in the presence of sunlight undergo known reactions which remove them from the atmosphere. The required gases simply could not have been around long enough for life to have developed. Furthermore, a cold trap was used to keep the reaction products from being destroyed as fast as they formed. Where is this "cold trap" in nature? The biggest problem is that the amino acids formed in this experiment are always a 50/50 mixture of stereotypes (L and D forms). Stereotypes are like a drawer full of right-hand and left-hand gloves, identical in every way except a mirror image of each other. Life uses only L stereotypes of these random amino acids. Yet, equal proportions of both types are always produced. How could the first cell have selected only L stereotypes from the random,equally reactive mixture produced in this experiment? And what about the other required types of amino acids which have (never) been formed in this experiment? These are just some of the myriad problems regarding the fanciful idea that life generated itself. What this experiment really proves is that life could not possibly have developed in this manner. Yet, students are told just the opposite. No experiment has ever shown that matter has the ability to come alive. The best explanation for life is still that life only comes from pre-existing life. As you search for the truth, perhaps you should consider the possibility that the source of all life...is God.                                                                 
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline prE4chEr

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #1 on: August 10, 2008, 05:56:21 AM »
          Congratulations. You have pointed out how unlikely it is for life to have beed created by radom chance from inorganic material. However, you weren't able to prove it is impossible. Evolution is based on random freak accidents in nature, so this argument doesn't really hold weight against it. We evolutionist understand that it is complicated and random. Stanley Miller's experiment isn't the be all end all of the argument for the beginning of life. It is just a stepping stone. It shows that it is possible, however unlikely, that life was created right here on Earth by random events. Stanley Miller conceded a few years after the experiment that the conditions of Earth could not have been what he had previously thought. This new information doesn't discredit his findings, it just complicates the required conditions a little more. He is fine with that. It wasn't like he was trying to trick people. He just experimented using the best information available at the time. That is what scientists do. They get an idea, and then try to prove or disprove it themselves. Then they publish it and submit it for peer review. If someone proves it wrong, they try to come up with a new idea. Now they are working on new ideas. It takes time to figure this stuff out. It isn't we jumped from the wheel to the automobile. It took a lot of inventions and discoveries between the two to get the automobile. The same goes for the study of the origins of life. Have patience. It takes time.
           
          or how about this.......
           
          "Did life begin in hydrothermal vents? The theory claims that living systems originated in so-called “inorganic incubators” – small compartments in iron sulphide rocks. Some researchers have proposed that life began in submarine hydrothermal vents, where superheated subterranean water pours into the sea. The idea is that the heat can help synthesize polymers, which would then be quenched in the surrounding seawater — this would prevent the same energy from destroying the products soon after they were formed."
           
          http://www.getm.org/?p=17
           
           
          Haven't really looked into that last one too much. I heard about it a while back so I figured I would look for it. Just thought it was kind of interesting so I figured I would share it with you guys.
          (\__/)
          (o.O )
          (> < )  Look into my evil eye. Bunny needs brains.....BRAINS!!!


          "All that we see or seem
          Is but a dream within a dream" Edgar Allan Poe

          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #2 on: August 13, 2008, 12:10:19 PM »
          Hydrothermal vents are nothing more than a habitat for already existing animals. have you not seen the pictures? A shrimp is a shrimp is a shrimp. Here's another scientific experiment you might find interesting. During the last century millions of fruit flies have been irradiated in laboratory experiments to observe the effect of mutations. The mutation rate has been increased by as much as 15,000 times. The results of this experiment simulate millions of years of evolutionary progress. What has resulted are big-winged, small-winged, wrinkled-winged, and no-winged fruit flies; large-bodied, small-bodied, and no-bodied fruit flies; red-eyed, speckled-eyed, leg-in-place of an eye fruit flies; many bristled or no bristled fruit flies; but mainly dead or sterile fruit flies. In conclusion, researchers began with fruit flies and end up with...well...fruit flies-defective ones. Furthermore, after several generations, even changes in the number of bristles on the irradiated fruit flies reverted back to original number. No new organ or useful feature has ever developed. The belief that mutations could slowly change an animal into some other animal is analogous (analogous , take that) to believing that an old vacuum tube black and white television could be changed into a color liquid crystal monitor by throwing random parts at it. The impacts will definitely produce changes (given the quality of current TV shows it could even be argued that these changes would be beneficial), but they certainly will not change the unit into a color TV. In the same way, mutations may produce changes, and it is remotely possible that some may be beneficial, but they will not change an organism into some other type of organism. For that to happen, useful information would have to be added to the DNA of the creature. This simply is not going to happen as a result of random mutations. It would seem that this commonly accepted evolutionary mechanism (mutations) has serious flaws which are seldom reported to students or the general public.
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #3 on: September 13, 2008, 02:32:56 PM »
          BUMP!
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline Kristi Marie

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #4 on: September 13, 2008, 03:23:11 PM »
          heya Mark could you use some paragraphs so it's easier to read maybe? instead of one LONG paragraph..

          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #5 on: September 13, 2008, 04:13:11 PM »
          I'm not sure how to do that? Do you hit tab or some thing?
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline angelamo

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #6 on: September 13, 2008, 08:08:24 PM »
          I know what Kristi means. It's too jumbled. Just hit "enter" in front of each sentence that you want to make a separate paragraph.


          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #7 on: September 13, 2008, 08:43:55 PM »
          Thanks,
          I'll try that next time.
          Hey it works.
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline Kristi Marie

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #8 on: September 14, 2008, 01:10:32 AM »
          thanks now maybe i won't get a headache trying to read what your writing!

          Offline ECOGEEK54

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #9 on: September 14, 2008, 07:22:09 AM »
          Okay, here’s where you wording is flawed.  Nitrites are what prohibit the creation of some amino acids, not oxygen.  Oxygen MUST have been in the atmosphere for there to be water, which is two parts hydrogen to one part…oh shoot...what was that word again?
          Remember what I said about calling something a science doesn’t make it a science?  Cutting and pasting from such websites as http://www.godrules.net/drdino/FAQcreationevolution19.htm or http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=8 doesn’t make these people scientists, remotely.  Also, not citing them as a source after using their words EXACTLY is plagiarism…be careful, please.  You lost all credibility here, friend.  I apologize for my sarcastic nature, but you can’t read one article and know all about a subject.  It just doesn’t happen.

          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #10 on: September 14, 2008, 12:07:50 PM »
          Take your own advice. Look up "Stanly Miller". Read 10 books on the subject. The experiment was flawed! You said yourself that "oxygen MUST have been in the atmosphere" and everyone knows it was omitted from the experiment. Duh, having a little trouble admitting you were wrong? Lets talk about science for a minute which you seem to think makes you smarter than others. 95% of all scientific theories have been changed or proven wrong over time. As will the current theories until you people wake up and realize "The Truth Is In The Bible"  Having said that I will admit that you may have taught me something when you said "The religion thread should be for all religions not just Christian religion" well said.
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline ECOGEEK54

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #11 on: September 14, 2008, 03:59:22 PM »
          Not smarter, Mark, better equipped.  Someone who's watched every season of House or Grey's Anatomy wouldn't go out and attempt to do brain surgery or heart surgery.  Besides, one thing we must all remember is that we are ALL ignorant in one subject or another.  Your strengths are obviously in your religion, but there's a world outside of that.  My problem (and please, take this with a grain of salt, because it is my belief) with the Christianity is that all throughout history whenever something was different, they were seen negative.  Prime example is Galileo.  He said that we are not the center of the universe and it pissed off the religious community, in particular, the Catholic Church.  Pope Innocent puts out a papal stating that all witches should be killed, which leads to Christians killing Christians.  Catholics killing Protestants and vice versa because of different beliefs (think Bloody Mary). 

          But, I think the problem most people run into when talking about scientific theory is the definition of scientific theory.  The word theory in everyday use generally means opinion or idea, sometimes even hypothesis.  Scientific theory is not a guess, by any means.  Generally, a theory will come in to existence when all the data collected creates a sound prediction or model or something.  Think about the Big Bang Theory.  The Universe is expanding, we've physically witnessed this.  Because it's expanding at a set speed, we can reverse the model and show where there is a set time where everything was smaller than an atom.  A theory can't be proven, but it holds firm until it's disproven.  The Big Bang Theory (again) has been challenged and was almost disproven, by the Steady State Theory.  It wasn't until Hubble saw that the universe was expanding that the Steady State Theory was, in fact, disproven.

          So, most theories have been disproven so we can have the sound theories we have today.  However, I would like to see where you get your statistics.  After all, we’re talking fact here.

          All of this being said, I never stated that the experiment wasn't flawed.  I also believe some theories have holes in them, but I'm man enough to admit this.  Because I know, without a shadow of a doubt, that we as physical natural beings are flawed.  Every living thing on this planet is fallible in its own way.  This would include the Koran, Torah and Bible.  Inspiration is often full of imagination and fantasy.  Sometimes, that can be misconstrued as religion.  Stating this, the Bible can only be partial truth, if any truth at all, as with any book ever written by man (inspired by god or otherwise).

          I would also like to point out that my belief that certain theories have holes may be because I don’t fully understand them. 

          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #12 on: September 14, 2008, 05:28:31 PM »
          Again I think your theory of a "set speed" has huge holes. There is no law of physics that states that speed or the speed of light is constant it could have been faster or slower throughout history.
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline What_The?

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #13 on: September 15, 2008, 12:17:49 AM »
          Again I think your theory of a "set speed" has huge holes. There is no law of physics that states that speed or the speed of light is constant it could have been faster or slower throughout history.

          You act like you actually understand what you copy and paste.

          Here's a tip:

          You don't.

          Not even close.
          "There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

          Offline mark

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #14 on: September 15, 2008, 11:15:08 AM »
          Please teach me what it is that I don't understand about science.
          We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
          We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
          ~Teilhard de Chardin

          Offline What_The?

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #15 on: September 15, 2008, 03:47:51 PM »
          Please teach me what it is that I don't understand about science.

          I think if you combine the word "every" with the word "thing," you'll come close to approaching what you don't understand about science.

          Here's a simple test for you:

          If you eliminate the Bible's teachings from the equation, does it hold true?  Can a Hindu take your "scientific" beliefs
          and come to the same exact conclusion conclusions based on the same set of data?

          Take for instance, 2+2.  No matter what religion you believe in, 2+2 has, for as long as humans have been able to count object, always equalled four.

          Always.  There has never been an instance when two obects combined with two object have resulted in 10 trillion objects.

          Yet using the Christian Biblical approach to sceince, 2+2 can equal anything because God has infinite power. 

          Yet, if you take God out of the equation, does 2+2 ever equal anything but 4?

          So science, in the eyes of Christians, must be full of crap because God can do anything. 

          God can make light go faster than about 186,000 mps, which has proven by measurement to be constant.  God can make the Earth only 10,000 years old
          and make humans co-exist wth dinosaurs.

          But, can God make a burrito so big the He Himself could not eat it?
          "There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

          Offline ECOGEEK54

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          Re: Stanley Miller
          « Reply #16 on: September 15, 2008, 04:20:36 PM »
           How about I start?  First, science is too broad a term.  Which science do you mean.  If ALL science is wrong, and the Bible is the only one truth, then more people would be healed by the bible alone than would be by medical science.  Those doctors that I'm sure you take your family to, base all of their knowledge and practice on the scientific method.  You said, "you people" earlier, so I presume you mean all scientists.  Let's talk material sciences for a momment.  If these sciences were wrong, then your car that you tote your family in, the house you and your family live in, wouldn't be as safe as they are today.  I'm pretty sure if you got into an accident where an airbag deployed or the seatbelt stopped you from crushing your face on the stearing wheel, sure, you'll be thanking god, but it's the scientists that came up with these ideas.  TRUTH is, you owe, we all owe, alot to the scientists and engineers that make things in life safer and easier. 

          How about mathematics?  Why isn't anybody wining about how mathematics doesn't say anything about god, after all, it is the most complex science of all.  Newton, using mathematics, found several amazing things.  Einstein's E=MC2 is nothing but a mathematical equation.  Truth is, in elementary mathematics, 2+2 will always equal four. 


          Ooh, how about social sciences and geography?  In geography, no one wines about how the teachers don't say that god put Rome in power, that the huns were ruthless because god wanted it so or that the Americas were founded because the Bible said it would be so. 

          No, to wine and moan about science, without knowing the importance of those people who are working the field, is wrong.  But, just so you know, here's a small list of sciences compiled by wikipedia:

          Biology:  ·         Biochemistry
          ·         Biophysics
          ·         Botany
          ·         Cellular biology
          ·         Ecology
          ·         Medicine
          ·         Microbiology
          ·         Molecular biology
          ·         Physiology
          ·         Zoology   Physical Science:  ·         Astronomy
          ·         Chemistry
          ·         Earth sciences
          ·         Physics 
          Social sciences:
            Anthropology Communication Cultural studies Economics Education [/list]