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Author Topic: Real persecution  (Read 21104 times)

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Offline prE4chEr

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Real persecution
« on: November 16, 2008, 03:02:27 PM »

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Offline prE4chEr

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2008, 03:13:56 PM »
I am going to start with some persecutions of atheists in America.
 
1. Texas Bill of Rights Article 1 Section 4 Religious Test
 
"No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being."
 
 
2. Arkansas Constitution Article 19 Section 1
 
"1. Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness. 
No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this
State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court."

 
3. North Carolina Constituion Art 6 sec 8

"The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God."

4. South Carolina Constitution Art 6 Sec 2

"Person denying existence of Supreme Being not to hold office. No person who denies the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution."
 
 
5. Tennessee Constitution/Bill of Rights Article 9 Section 2
 
"No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state."
 
 
6. Maryland Bill of Rights
 
Article 36: "That as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore, no person ought by any law to be molested in his person or estate, on account of his religious persuasion, or profession, or for his religious practice, unless, under the color of religion, he shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others in their natural, civil or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent, or maintain, or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain, any place of worship, or any ministry; nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness, or juror, on account of his religious belief; provided, he believes in the existence of God, and that under His dispensation such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefore either in this world or in the world to come."
 
Article 37: "That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution."

 
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Offline prE4chEr

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2008, 03:30:26 PM »
2. Arkansas Constitution Article 19 Section 1
 "1. Atheists disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness.
No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this
State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court."

[/l]

 
This one better get us out of jury duty.
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Offline fish

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2008, 04:01:35 PM »
are you yalking religious persecution or discrimination?

Offline prE4chEr

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2008, 04:52:57 PM »
It's both discrimination and persecution. The inability to hold office, believe it or not, does cause emotional harm. Being told you are not "competent" enough to testify, essentialy by the majority of society, is persecution.
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Offline prE4chEr

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2008, 05:01:56 PM »
Here is the story of an atheist family persecuted in/by Hardesty, Oklahoma.
 
 
Is America the sort of country where Christians can harass an atheist girl in school, assault her father, then blame the father for the assault and file criminal charges against him? Is America the sort of country where the father can be told to leave the state if he wants the charges dropped? Yes, America is that sort of country because American Christians can be exactly that sort of person.

Fortunately, America is also the sort of country where real justice is possible despite some Christians’ best efforts. Chester Smalkowski, an atheist living in Hardesty, Oklahoma, was found not guilty by a jury who heard all manner of nonsense from Christians who seem to have wanted nothing more than to run him and his family out of town. American Atheists reports: 
 
Nicole Smalkowski was kicked off of the girls' basketball team after refusing to stand in a circle with her teammates on the gymnasium floor of the Hardesty public High School and recite the "Lord's Prayer." After school officials learned that she and her family were Atheists, lies were created about her as grounds to take her off of the team. 
 
Nicole's father Chuck made the mistake of going to the home of principal Lloyd Buckley to talk about it. Even if atheists didn't have to worry about physical violence, I'd still say that it was a mistake — going to a person's home in the evening in such a situation just isn't very appropriate. On the other hand, Hardesty evidently has a population of just a few hundred people and in such small communities it may be that doing such a thing is much more common.  Still, the consequences indicate that Smalkowski probably should have just made a phone call: 
 
Outside of his front fence, the principal struck Chuck, who blocked the blow. Both men fell to the ground and Buckley sustained minor injuries, the provable origins of which were strikingly contrary to his under oath trial testimony. Buckley then took out misdemeanor criminal assault charges against Chuck. After Smalkowski rejected the offer to drop the charges if he and his Atheist family left the state, the charges were raised to a felony. Chuck called American Atheists for help. 
 
The jury acquitted Smalkowski after just two hours of deliberation — and that time span included eating dinner. American Atheists’ description of the jury selection is interesting: 
 
Edwin [Kagin] introduced himself to the jury as National Legal Director for American Atheists and asked the prospective jury in the Oklahoma panhandle if they could accept the testimony of an Atheist over that of a professed Christian. When the jury looked at him blankly, the judge asked the prospects if they understood the question. One woman spoke for many in the group by asking “What is an Atheist?” Edwin explained that an Atheist was a person who did not believe in a god or gods or in a supernatural world, and that the defendant and his entire family were such persons. Many of the prospects said they could not believe such a person over a Christian and were struck for cause. To their credit, many members of the jury panel, including two ministers’ wives, told the judge they could not be fair to an Atheist in such a situation and were excused. 
 
I don’t know if I should feel more depressed over the fact that so many people were unable to believe the word of an atheist over a Christian, or optimistic about the fact that two ministers’ wives were willing to admit that they couldn't believe an atheist’s word over a Christian’s.  At Democratic Underground, Smalkowski describes the series of events in his own words: 
 
Hardesty has labeled us as devil worshippers. ...Teachers watched as students said she was gay because she voted for Kerry, only homosexuals vote for Kerry, we are Christian we vote for Bush. They persecuted my daughter. They called her a half-breed. Made fun of northerners and Yankees. Teachers said they hated her. Having other students follow her around to catch her on the littlest infraction. No teacher ever tried to enlighten these misguided children. Instead the school encouraged more of the same. 
 
The entire high school only has a couple of dozen students, and that’s in all classes, so the harassment being described here would have been very intense and completely inescapable. 
 
I turned myself in within 2 hours of an arrest warrant. Bail was set high at $5000 for a misdemeanor. When I paid it, it was switched to $15,000. A man that turns himself in and owns land is not a flight risk. I am not charged with two charges; the misdemeanor was brought along because of the excessive bail! The Sheriff Benji Fuentes and policeman Guy Cook, who are this mans friend, live within a few doors of each other, have wives and relatives on the school board, never took both sides of the story, though they heard it. If they had it would have stopped right there. Instead they knowingly shaped the evidence to hopefully stop the lawsuit I said I was going to file. They even went so far as to hindering us in obtaining evidence that would prove my innocence and my daughter's civil suit. [...]

The D.A. was willing to drop the charges if I left the county. The charges were switched from a misdemeanor to a felony when I refused. My local lawyer from Guymon was more than compromised and the DA knew it, yet she allowed him to continue until I found out and dropped him. He admitted it himself.
 
 
The entire community turned against the Smalkowskis — and those who knew the truth were pressured into keeping quiet. Local reporters were pressured to not print the truth — and reporters from outside the area appear to have followed suit. Few news outlets even have the story; those that do fail to mention most of the relevant facts, like how Nicole Smalkowski was punished for not participating in a religious exercise in a public school.  KFDA in Texas, for example, has as short piece which doesn’t mention the harassment of the entire family for being atheists. Apparently stories about atheists being persecuted aren’t important, but stories about a parent accused of assaulting a school official are important enough to mention.
 
http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/06/30/atheist-acquitted-on-assault-charges-after-being-harassed-by-local-christians.htm
 
 
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=3164811&page=1
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Offline kari

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2008, 05:09:23 PM »
There are numerous "benevolent" organizations that atheists can not join unless they believe in a Creator.....  I know those that rationalized, they believe in the "big bang" theory, that would have been the "Creator" and thus qualify. 
The Atheists I know are very good, intelligent, caring people.  They believe in doing good, not for the reward of going to "heaven", but because they feel that is how they should lead their llives.  Atheists donate their time, and money to many organizations (even some religious ones) that serve the welfare of humans, animals, and the earth. 
Just as you have good and bad people in Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc., there are bad Atheists.  A belief in a G_D does NOT make a person good.  I have known a number of Christians that have done horrid things, but they feel because they have a "belief", all the bad things they have done (will do), will be forgiven.  "Do not do unto others, that which you do not want done to you", is NOT restricted to those of Judaeo/Christian "belief".
 
Had an Atheist went to school with me, he/she would have gotten in trouble, just like I did, for not saying the prayers during assembly.... that is persecution.  Atheists that say, "one Nation, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all", are criticized, whereas those that do not say the pledge, due to religious belief, are seen as exerscicsng their religious freedom. 
 
Atheist have served this Country throughout our history yet, they are one of the first to be seen as being "non-patriotic", because they do not believe in a G_D!  Freedom of religion must also include freedom from religion.
 
People seem to forgot how many swore, on the bible, to tell the truth, yet lied under that oath...perjury (our judicial system realizes that people can/do lie, even when sworn in with a bible). 
 
I would have NO problem with an Atheist President, Catholic President, Jewish President, Muslim President, etc., as long as they follow our Constitution, do not impose their "belief" on others, etc.
 
Fly away 'karma'......   ;D
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Offline prE4chEr

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2008, 05:30:10 PM »
Quit complaining about losing Karma. I got -2038.
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Offline kari

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2008, 05:49:32 PM »
Quit complaining about losing Karma. I got -2038.
Not complaining... I find it rather funny.. and I am sooooooo jealous!  I only got to -11!
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Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2008, 09:08:40 PM »
Here is one more atrocity...

This topic will not get nearly as many posts as the other persecution thread...

Sad no?

Offline kari

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2008, 09:29:02 PM »
Here is one more atrocity...

This topic will not get nearly as many posts as the other persecution thread...

Sad no?
I agree.... the reason is, as long as it "doesn't effect me" is how so many people see things.  What people don't realize, if we allow one people to be persecuted, in time those that thought it didn't effect them, will find themselves at the short end of the persecution stick! 
 
I have a difficult time understanding how "religious" people can condemn, ignore, deny the rights of people (who are causing no one harm) in the name of religion.  I see it somewhat like those that condemn homosexuals... I find most homophobic people are very insecure in their own sexuality.  Anyone that is secure in their beliefs (including Atheists as they DO have a belief), does not have the need to make everyone believe as they do.  Everyone should be able to voice their opinion, respect the opinion of others, even when they disagree.  "Do no harm" should be one of the first thoughts when discussing religion, politics, etc.  Sadly, this is not always the case.
 
Those with a belief in G_D, Jesus, Allah, whatever they name their/THE Diety seem to have a need to make others believe the same, but I have also met many Atheist that do the same.  NONE of us knows the how/why/when, other then what their religion or belief tells them, including Atheists.  Each side has valid points as far as I am concerned. 
 
 
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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2008, 12:31:03 AM »
Unless someone has actually suffered real persecution, real discrimination.... they have no idea what it's about, and just don't care, until it's them......  So many on these forums would scream and holler, if those experiencing the discrimination, and persecution were of their religious belief.... 
 
Allow me to take a couple of your examples, and change them just a tad.... wonder how it would be "accepted" in this form:
 
2. Arkansas Constitution Article 19 Section 1
 
"1. Christians, Jews, Muslims, disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness.   
No person who accepts the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this
State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court."

 
 
3. North Carolina Constituion Art 6 sec 8

 
"The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall accepts the being of Almighty God."

   
4. South Carolina Constitution Art 6 Sec 2

"Person accepting existence of a Supreme Being not to hold office. No person who accepts the existence of the Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution."
 
 
5. Tennessee Constitution/Bill of Rights Article 9 Section 2
 
"No person who accepts/believes the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state."

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Offline prE4chEr

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2008, 03:06:30 AM »

2. Arkansas Constitution Article 19 Section 1
 
"1. Christians, Jews, Muslims, disqualified from holding office or testifying as witness.   
No person who accepts the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this
State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court."

[/l]

I would bet anything that if they tried to put that one in the books, the Arkansas state capitol and flag would burn in the first week.
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Offline kari

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2008, 03:12:37 AM »
 
I would bet anything that if they tried to put that one in the books, the Arkansas state capitol and flag would burn in the first week.
[/l]

You bet your a$$ it would.  If you want to make people aware of the injustice....change certain words.... let people respond, because I'm sure most would passionately....they would say how terrible it is, that it shouldn't be......that no one should be so discriminated against...then set the record straight... see if they "change" their minds, when it's someone else, that is the target.
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Offline fish

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2008, 03:34:53 AM »
if someone refuses to make a simple acknowledgement and accept the fact that God created all, then they should not be trusted with with a position that requires more complicated thought beyond the sound reasoning that there is one God that created all.







































gotcha!!!

Offline kari

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2008, 04:08:30 AM »
if someone refuses to make a simple acknowledgement and accept the fact that God created all, then they should not be trusted with with a position that requires more complicated thought beyond the sound reasoning that there is one God that created all.

Why should anyone have to acknowledge something, because you believe in it?  I bet you'd be shocked if you found out how many Doctor's, Lawyers, Politicians, Scientists, Dentists, Soldiers, Teachers, etc. that are Atheists.  I do not want to force my religious beliefs on anyone else.  Will I discuss my beliefs, of course, but not in an attempt to make anyone else share my belief.  I respect people.  Where does it stop....You feel Atheists should not be trusted in a position that requires "more complicated thought" beyond sound reasoning?  Does it end with Atheists?  What G_D do they have to believe in?  Some Christians believe Jesus is G_D, so are those Christians that believe Jesus is NOT G_D, but G_D's son, not to be trusted in such a positon?  What about those that worship Vishnu, Allah, or the Goddess? 
 
Atheists donate to help others, without EVER expecting to be rewarded in Heaven.   When an Atheists donates to charity, they are doing it selflessly.  Atheists do many good deeds, not for a reward in Heaven.  Sure there are bad Atheists, like there are bad Christians, bad Jews, bad Muslims.  Christianity rewards people for their good deeds with Heaven.  The Atheist does it because, it's just the right thing to do good deeds. 
 
My son, is a good person.  He's taken people into his home, when they needed shelter, fed them when they were hungry, is very involved with the welfare of children, is a member of a number of benevolent organizations, increased a number of those organizations memberships, yet when it was his turn to become the leader of one of those groups, he was not voted in.  The REASON given?  My son is Jewish and it was said by one member who convinced the others, "I can not put my trust in someone who does not believe in Jesus".  They were able to put trust in him when they wanted money, wanted to increase their membership, when they needed fund-raising ideas, etc., but he ended up the first one, in line for the position, that was not voted in!  He could well have taken legal recourse, but his concern was more with the organization being able to continue the work for the community.  He flat out said, that had he brought it up through legal means, it would most probably bankrupt them and they'd shut down, no longer being able to help the community. 
 
So, tell me, where does it stop?
 
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Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2008, 09:45:08 AM »
Kari, I know you're responding to someone else, but I want to put in my "two cents" because I think there may be some misunderstandings here between you and Fish.
 
First, let me make it clear that I do not believe religious tests to sit on a jury are appropriate at this time in American civil life. And in any case, what happened to your son was totally inappropriate unless the organization to which he belonged was explicitly Christian or otherwise somehow explicitly excluded Jewish people from leadership. Private organizations have a legitimate right to set their own rules, but they also have to follow the rules they've set for themselves. I don't know the details, but it certainly sounds like your son was a victim of religious abuse at best, and the word "persecution" is probably appropriate. I have a feeling that if I knew more details and had been a member of that organization, I would have been furious with the way your son was treated.
 
However, in an earlier era I would have agreed with Fish -- as would most but not all of the Founding Fathers. Why do I now disagree? Today, in an era when the overwhelming majority of Americans claim to believe in some form of "Supreme Being" but large majorities don't attend religious services, have any membership in a church or synagogue, or have any outward commitment to their professed religious principles, I don't think it serves any useful purpose to require belief in a "Supreme Being." That's entirely separate from court decisions which, whether they're correctly interpreting the Constitution or not, have made it virtually impossible to apply religious tests at the state level for public positions.
 
The idea behind that form of religious test requiring belief in a Supreme Being but not going into much detail about the specific doctrines of the person's denomination or faith group -- which, by the way, was specifically designed in the early 1800s to INCLUDE Jewish people and Deists, as opposed to earlier versions of Trinitarian religious tests common in the colonial era which would have excluded Jews, Deists, and in some cases were more specific and even excluded Roman Catholics from juries and other forms of public service -- was that a person's veracity is compromised if they don't believe in a Supreme Being and therefore don't believe that lies have ultimate and eternal consequences.
 
The federal Constitution's prohibition on religious tests to hold public office was not originally intended to apply to the states -- at the point that the Constitution was ratified, three states still had tax-supported officially established churches, and the last state establishment of a denomination wasn't ended until the 1830s -- but in the early 1800s and well into the late 1800s, most Americans believed it was important that a person profess some kind of belief in a Supreme Being who provides eternal rewards and metes out eternal punishments for sin and evil.
 
The U.S. Supreme Court had made all of this history legally irrelevant. More importantly, changes in society have made it irrelevant as a practical matter to require belief in a Supreme Being. Not many states have gone to the extent of what I saw as a police reporter in New Mexico where people were sworn into court, not with an oath to "tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you G-d" but rather to "tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, under penalty of law." However, there's no practical difference today between those two oaths in how they affect most witnesses in court proceedings. People are still held legally accountable for perjury, and most people don't really care whether an unseen G-d will punish them for lying -- they care whether the judge sitting in front of them will send them to jail or fine them for lying.
 
Regards,
DTM
 
 
Why should anyone have to acknowledge something, because you believe in it?  I bet you'd be shocked if you found out how many Doctor's, Lawyers, Politicians, Scientists, Dentists, Soldiers, Teachers, etc. that are Atheists.  I do not want to force my religious beliefs on anyone else.  Will I discuss my beliefs, of course, but not in an attempt to make anyone else share my belief.  I respect people.  Where does it stop....You feel Atheists should not be trusted in a position that requires "more complicated thought" beyond sound reasoning?  Does it end with Atheists?  What G_D do they have to believe in?  Some Christians believe Jesus is G_D, so are those Christians that believe Jesus is NOT G_D, but G_D's son, not to be trusted in such a positon?  What about those that worship Vishnu, Allah, or the Goddess? 
 
Atheists donate to help others, without EVER expecting to be rewarded in Heaven.   When an Atheists donates to charity, they are doing it selflessly.  Atheists do many good deeds, not for a reward in Heaven.  Sure there are bad Atheists, like there are bad Christians, bad Jews, bad Muslims.  Christianity rewards people for their good deeds with Heaven.  The Atheist does it because, it's just the right thing to do good deeds. 
 
My son, is a good person.  He's taken people into his home, when they needed shelter, fed them when they were hungry, is very involved with the welfare of children, is a member of a number of benevolent organizations, increased a number of those organizations memberships, yet when it was his turn to become the leader of one of those groups, he was not voted in.  The REASON given?  My son is Jewish and it was said by one member who convinced the others, "I can not put my trust in someone who does not believe in Jesus".  They were able to put trust in him when they wanted money, wanted to increase their membership, when they needed fund-raising ideas, etc., but he ended up the first one, in line for the position, that was not voted in!  He could well have taken legal recourse, but his concern was more with the organization being able to continue the work for the community.  He flat out said, that had he brought it up through legal means, it would most probably bankrupt them and they'd shut down, no longer being able to help the community. 
 
So, tell me, where does it stop?
Darrell Todd Maurina
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Offline prE4chEr

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2008, 12:27:21 PM »
Poor fish. If DTM says you are outdated, you know it must be true. Poor poor fish.
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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2008, 07:24:07 PM »
DTM:
     The organization (it is worldwide) does not promote, or endorse any one religion.  Oaths may be taken on the Qu'ran, King James Bible, Tanach, etc.  What my son experienced should never have happened.  The reason I bring these things up is to show people that, unfortunately, these things still happen today and not just to nameless, faceless, "others".  There are people on these forums that know me or my family, personally.  I use my real name here, my real picture (only my eyes as a "I'm looking in" effect). 
 
     What happened to my son, happened only a few years ago, in his own community, here in Missouri.  Due to what my family and I have experienced throughout the years, makes me more aware of others plight.  As strange as it may sound, I am thankful for all we have endured, for in the long run it has made us stronger, and more compassionate.  Had I not experienced such things personally, I may not be able to understand how others, that have such experiences, feel.  I am one of those "liberals" that tries to see good, even in the bad (though some may disagree).  Life is full of lessons, and it's up to us to learn from those lessons.
 
     When it comes down to it, religion is man made.  If, one believes that, the holy scriptures were written by G_D through man, one has to admit that throughout the centuries, man has changed the texts.  Man has interpreted scripture as he sees it to be.  This is evident in how many different branches of each religion there are.  Translations of the writings differ greatly, yet many will insist that their interpretation is the only true one.  How foolish man is!  We have not learned, through the ages, that we are all related, either through the belief in creation, or through evolution, we ALL started in the same fashion.  There is simply a difference of opinion/belief HOW we started.
 
     We have become so hell-bent on insisting that what we believe (been taught to believe) to be true, must be true, and must inflict that belief on others.  When do we say, "ENOUGH"?   When do we stop the persecution?  I am not saying that we should not have healthy debates, differences of opinion, but when do we accept that others, who believe differently, have the same rights as us?  I am the first to admit that though I have strong beliefs, my beliefs are MINE.  I can not, nor do I expect all others to agree with me, for they have the right to their beliefs, and I respect that.  I do my best to learn about others beliefs, because my own family (extended, cousins, etc.) is so diversified that we have most of the mainstream, not so mainstream religious beliefs, and Atheists among us!  We have yet to have ONE religious problem among us!  We enjoy each others holidays. Ok, normally Chanukah and Christmas wasn't all that great for me as my birthday falls right near Christmas, and if Chanukah was during that time, I got ripped off in the gift dept.... "Here's your Christmas/Birthday/Chanukah gift" (but I still had 7 more days, gifts, with Chanukah  ;D ).  I did resent it when family members gave me the "Christmas/Birthday gift", but I was a child.  One of my sweetest childhood holiday memories is when my cousin, Diane, gave our family the BEST Christmas gift ever.....a huge tower of boxes, filled with petit fours, that she made!!!  The Atheist family members also participate in all the holidays!  We have attended each others religious ceremonies, no problems.  We defend each other rights, respect each other rights, and love each other regardless of religious differences.
 
     All these things that I have shared here, helped form me into the person I am.  When people are sheltered from the world, they are denied wonderful experiences, they are denied the benefit of meeting wonderful people of difficult cultures/beliefs.  They see only themselves, only their beliefs, only their culture and can not/ will not understand others.  When their beliefs are questioned, when they suffer an indignity, then, maybe, that's when they can be a bit more open to look how others are/have been treated.
 
BTW, I wish people a Merry Christmas, if I know they celebrate that holiday... otherwise, I say Happy Holidays (unless I know they are JW, Atheist, etc.). 
 
     Ok, I just fell off my soap box..... damn, right on my butt....must go get some sweets to stop the pain (I just want some candy!) ;D
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Offline What_The?

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2008, 07:27:27 PM »
Why should anyone have to acknowledge something, because you believe in it?  I bet you'd be shocked if you found out how many Doctor's, Lawyers, Politicians, Scientists, Dentists, Soldiers, Teachers, etc. that are Atheists.  I do not want to force my religious beliefs on anyone else.  Will I discuss my beliefs, of course, but not in an attempt to make anyone else share my belief.  I respect people.  Where does it stop....You feel Atheists should not be trusted in a position that requires "more complicated thought" beyond sound reasoning?  Does it end with Atheists?  What G_D do they have to believe in?  Some Christians believe Jesus is G_D, so are those Christians that believe Jesus is NOT G_D, but G_D's son, not to be trusted in such a positon?  What about those that worship Vishnu, Allah, or the Goddess? 
 
Atheists donate to help others, without EVER expecting to be rewarded in Heaven.   When an Atheists donates to charity, they are doing it selflessly.  Atheists do many good deeds, not for a reward in Heaven.  Sure there are bad Atheists, like there are bad Christians, bad Jews, bad Muslims.  Christianity rewards people for their good deeds with Heaven.  The Atheist does it because, it's just the right thing to do good deeds. 
 
My son, is a good person.  He's taken people into his home, when they needed shelter, fed them when they were hungry, is very involved with the welfare of children, is a member of a number of benevolent organizations, increased a number of those organizations memberships, yet when it was his turn to become the leader of one of those groups, he was not voted in.  The REASON given?  My son is Jewish and it was said by one member who convinced the others, "I can not put my trust in someone who does not believe in Jesus".  They were able to put trust in him when they wanted money, wanted to increase their membership, when they needed fund-raising ideas, etc., but he ended up the first one, in line for the position, that was not voted in!  He could well have taken legal recourse, but his concern was more with the organization being able to continue the work for the community.  He flat out said, that had he brought it up through legal means, it would most probably bankrupt them and they'd shut down, no longer being able to help the community. 
 
So, tell me, where does it stop?

If it ain't white and Christian, it ain't right.
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2008, 07:34:26 PM »

If it ain't white and Christian, it ain't right.
OMG, then an entire religion is based on someone who wasn't "right"? 
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Offline What_The?

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2008, 07:34:43 PM »
Creationists make it sound like a ‘theory’ is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night .

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one.

I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.

The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.





And my favorite:

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
 
Oops forgot to source those, from listverse.com
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline What_The?

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2008, 07:35:15 PM »
OMG, then an entire religion is based on someone who wasn't "right"?

Jesus is a tall white guy with dirty blonde hair, a long flowing beard and blue eyes.
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline What_The?

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2008, 07:40:56 PM »
Also from listverse:

Found in: 4 Kings 2:23-24

One of the more inspirational passages in the Bible tells the story of Elijah, a wise man, yet one cursed with male pattern baldness. One day he was minding his own business, making the long walk to Bethel, when he is attacked by a roving band of children who tease him with names like “bald head.” But Elijah was having none of this, he turns round and curses them in the name of the Lord, and instantly two female bears emerge from a nearby wood and maul all 42 children to death.

The moral of this story? Don’t make fun of bald people. Frankly, why this story isn’t included along with the Ten Commandments is anybody’s guess, but I think it would serve as an excellent lesson for children who think baldness is something to be made fun of.


**********************
Found in: Genesis 38:8-10

A story so eponymous, it gave way to its own neologism – onanism, an archaic term for masturbation. Basically, God kills Er. Why? We don’t really find out. However, in a stroke of good luck, Er’s father, Judah, has given you the right, nay the duty, to have sex with your dead brother’s wife. Onan is a bit apprehensive at first, but agrees to go through with this bizarre scheme to create a ‘true heir’ to Er. He begins to have sex with the girl, but at the last minute decides to pull out and spill “his seed upon the ground.” God is so irked he decides to kill Onan too, and thus nobody gets an heir. This story is the basis for the Christian condemnation of masturbation and birth control.

The moral of this story? In the words of Monty Python, “Every sperm is sacred…”

********************

Found in: Judges 19:22-30

Within the Bible, one occasionally finds stories so horrible, one can wonder what their purpose is. Not only is this story utterly bizarre, but it is also absolutely disgusting. A man and his concubine are wandering the streets when they decide to seek shelter for the night, and find a man kind enough to let them stay. That night however, a group of men turn up at the door and demand to see the guest so that they may have sex with him. The owner is unwilling to let his male lodger be raped and so offers up his virgin daughter instead. However, this is still not good enough for the men, so the owner offers them his guest’s concubine and the men accept. The men brutally rape the woman and leave her on the doorstep where she bleeds to death. If that is not enough, when she is found by her husband, he chops her up into twelve pieces which he sends to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

The moral of this story? I would hope none.

***********************

Found in: 1 Kings 18:25-27

Before Byron, before Casanova, there was David. Young and in love, David desperately wants to marry Saul’s daughter Michal and offers Saul anything he wants to let him marry her. What could Saul possibly want? Money? A vow of love? No. Saul wants foreskins. 100 to be exact. Why? Who cares. If you want my daughter, you’re going to have to find 100 foreskins by tomorrow. David finds this odd, but then again this girl is hot, so he goes out and kills 200 men, and collects their foreskins. It’s only then he remembers that he only needs 100 foreskins. Oops. Oh well, maybe if he hands over twice as many foreskins, Saul will be doubly as impressed. Indeed he is and duly hands over his daughter to David.

The moral of this story? Never be ashamed to do crazy things for love.

**************************

Found in: Exodus 4:24-26

Continuing the Bible’s fascination with all things foreskin, we get the bizarre story of God trying to kill Moses because his son isn’t circumcised. God is about to obliterate Moses when his wife Zipporah takes out a flint and quickly cuts the foreskin of his son (ouch), throwing the bloody skin fragment at Moses’ feet. “You are a bloody husband to me!” squeals Zipporah, flint in one hand, child in other. God, clearly freaked out by this woman, backs off and Moses is saved.

The moral of this story? Never turn down a woman for being a psycho. Someday she may save your life.


******************************

Found in: Matthew 21:19; Mark 11:13-14

So, Jesus is walking from Bethany and he’s feeling a bit peckish. He encounters a fig tree, but unfortunately it is barren as it’s the off season for figs. Annoyed, Jesus demands the fig tree bear him fruit, however the fig tree doesn’t respond (it’s a tree), so Jesus, in an act of uncharacteristic rashness, curses the fig tree to death. This story is bizarre for many reasons, but mainly for how little it means to the Jesus story and how Jesus seems to react so harshly. OK, so he’s hungry, and we all get a little cranky when hungry, but come on, the fig tree had done nothing wrong. This just seems like abuse of powers to me.

The moral of this story? I honestly can’t think of one. This story seems so unimportant and purposeless yet both Mark and Matthew mention it so it must have some importance. The best I can think of is: don’t disobey Jesus, even if you’re an inanimate tree.



**********************

"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline Coyote

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2008, 07:55:31 PM »
The Jews DO believe in Jesus...only as a man and not as the Son of God.
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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2008, 08:06:10 PM »
If i remember correctly Jesus was a Jew?
And while he was on this earth he was a Man also the Son of GOD.
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Offline kari

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2008, 08:24:17 PM »

Jesus is a tall white guy with dirty blonde hair, a long flowing beard and blue eyes.
That is how some people wish to believe he would have looked like, and are under the misconception that he was Christian.  A Christian is a follower of Christ.  Christ is the greek word for Messiah (Christos, μεσσίας ).  Their names were not Mary, Joseph Christ.  Jesus was not his first name, as he would not have had a Greek name, but rather a Hebrew name.  Jesus celebrated the holidays of the hebrews.  The last supper is believed to have been a Passover Sedar that G_D commanded was to be kept, forever (Exodus 12:14) and the reason many Churches have combined interfaith Sedars.  Here, most people celebrate Christmas just one day when in reality, it is a 12 day holiday ending with 3 Kings Day (January 6th).  I use to have a 3 Kings Days "party" for my Christian friends as most spent December 25th with their families. Hmm, never had anyone hold a Chanukah party for my family (that's a thread of it's own, lol).
 
Many, religious leaders(Christian leaders), agree if Jesus were here today, he would celebrate the Jewish holidays and pray in a Temple.  That is what would have been familiar to him.  He would have spoken Hebrew and practiced Jewish rituals (mikvah, etc.)
 
As for his appearance, being Jewish, he would have been of a much "darker flavor", with dark eyes.  http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/20080907.htm  " It's unlikely that Jesus had blond hair and blue eyes. Most people of Jewish descent don't. The truth is, no one knows what color skin, hair or eyes Jesus had when He was on the earth. The inspired word of God doesn't reveal those things. Therefore those details don't matter.

All we know about His appearance then was that He was rather plain-looking. When He left Heaven and came in human flesh, He took on "the form of a servant" (Philippians 2:7). In Isaiah 53:2, it was prophesied that "He has no form or comeliness; and when we see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him." In other words, He was an ordinary looking Jew without any outstanding physical characteristics."
 
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/12/25/face.jesus/index.html
 
So, those that believe "if it ain't white and Christian, it ain't right", disrespect the Christian faith by saying their Messiah "isn't right".  Someone should tell the KKK!!!
 
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Offline fish

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2008, 01:35:02 AM »
you didn't read the last line of my post kari. humor , eh?

I don't care what religion a person chooses, God created us as free agents to believe as we wish.

why haven't those rules been overturned or updated in those states?


winston still has a lot of race cards left over from the election,odd he is the one that appears racist. No one else mentions race but him?

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2008, 01:59:29 AM »
you didn't read the last line of my post kari. humor , eh?

I don't care what religion a person chooses, God created us as free agents to believe as we wish.

why haven't those rules been overturned or updated in those states?


winston still has a lot of race cards left over from the election,odd he is the one that appears racist. No one else mentions race but him?
I may well have missed the humor, and if so, please except my apology.
 
There are many laws/rules on the books that are outdated, blue laws and the such.  I remember in Pa a law concerning "spitting"! ewwww, but it had been a law.  Until someone takes note, many strange, outdated, and down-right discriminating laws remain on the books.
 
Winston does seem to see the world through race, or uses it to provoke people.  Surprisingly, I have actually seen a post by Winston that was intelligent and well thought out.  For the most part, Winston seems to just enjoy provoking others for pleasure.
 
You do not care what "religion" a person choses, but what about those that chose no religion?
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Offline Coyote

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Re: Real persecution
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2008, 01:56:19 PM »
I wouldn't believe anything that was printed in the  American Atheists Newsletter.  One way to get people riled up is by making up stories that can't be proved, and Atheists have always been good at that.
....and that night as the moon crossed the mountain, one more Coyote was heard...