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Author Topic: auto industry woes  (Read 4404 times)

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Offline fish

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auto industry woes
« on: December 06, 2008, 06:38:24 PM »

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the big three want a bailout. congress is going to give it to them.
why aren't the others not having problems? unions and gov't interference.
 I don't want us to pay for a bailout. let the market economy work. that is how chrysler learned in the 80's.

Offline Desrt Sky

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2008, 06:49:52 PM »
What do you think is the best approach: bailout or bankruptcy?  Or is there another option?

American Solutions poll
http://www.americansolutions.com/Blog/Read.aspx?guid=bc2d9218-bfb3-4efd-bc4c-78ee10dcae16

Offline matrsnot

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2008, 10:39:15 PM »
Well, they could develop cars that are more efficient.  They might sell some then.  They could also stop skimming their salaries off the top too.  How about an efficeintly run organization?  Just some suggestions.

Offline fish

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2008, 02:00:58 AM »
if they file for bankruptcy, the union agreements are nil, I believe. That will get rid of the job bank and workers collecting 95% of there pay when they are layed off. they need to make cars that people will buy. electric cars ain't them. how are the prius' doing. if it isn't something that you can drive right now, forget it. the biggest problem with car sales is price. because of the unions, there are a lot of costs added to the sticker. if the car companies won't build cars people will buy, they should go out of business.

Offline prE4chEr

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2008, 05:36:51 AM »
electric cars ain't them. how are the prius' doing. if it isn't something that you can drive right now, forget it.

That is why you aren't in the automotive industry. The Prius is doing very well. It is Toyota's third most popular vehicle behind Camry and Corrolla.
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Offline fish

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2008, 02:28:00 PM »
how do it's numbers stack up against the auto sold in general?
       Worst Sales Performance of Any Car: Toyota Prius by Lloyd Alter, Toronto on 12. 3.08   
 car-sales-november.jpg

Offline prE4chEr

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2008, 07:45:55 PM »
The difference between the Prius and the other vehicles is that sales for the Prius have dropped because of production not the market.
 
"But Toyota said Thursday that it will put Highlander production into the Indiana plant, and devote the new Mississippi facility to the popular Prius. Now built exclusively in Japan, the Prius has been selling out in American showrooms. In June, Prius sales fell 33 percent because dealers simply couldn’t fill orders."
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/11/business/worldbusiness/11toyota.html
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Offline fish

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2008, 12:55:57 AM »
that was in july. the table above is based on nov sales. the prius is supposed to replace all the vehicles above it on that chart, yet a ford f-150 outsells it.

Offline prE4chEr

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2008, 03:46:39 AM »
It's only a few months difference, and in that few months, an Economic crisis has been going on.
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Offline fish

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2008, 01:28:38 PM »
and the prius isn't the car of choice for a lot of people.

Offline freethinker

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2008, 05:01:00 PM »
umm... i might point out the painfully obvious...   the Prius is not an "electric car"...  it is a Hybrid vehicle...   and the Chevy Malibu is now also offered as a hybrid vehicle, that is why it's sales have increased so well.   So the real basis of that graph you've shown didn't really argue against hybrid vehicle technology (which, in fact, is what the american public wants...), but rather the buyer's preference of model. the prius is a compact car, and most people need more room [kids and such]...  a malibu is rather roomy and get's great gas mileage..
 
there are a lot more options out there for people who want to buy hybrids, so the prius is losing sales to other hybrids. but all in all, hybrid sales are up [see link below]..
 
you have to remember, gasoline prices have dropped dramatically, so people are not concerned about driving that gas guzzling SUV right now, which is partly responsible to the slight shift back away from hybrids. most people dont care about the environment, they care about thier pockets.  gas is cheap, and hybrids cost a little more then non-hybrids. so, for the time being, the long-term payoff you get from saving on gas with a hybrid is irrelevant.  we'll see how those numbers look when gas goes back up, because it will most definately go back up.
 
http://www.hybridcars.com/market-dashboard/october-2008-dashboard-55132.html[/s]

Offline cowboy

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2008, 05:48:39 PM »
So the real basis of that graph you've shown didn't really argue against hybrid vehicle technology (which, in fact, is what the american public wants...), but rather the buyer's preference of model. the prius is a compact car, and most people need more room [kids and such]...  a malibu is rather roomy and get's great gas mileage..
 

I have known people that bought "hybrids" and after  two fill ups with alternate fuel found they were more expensive to operate.   Just because you call it a hybrid does not automatically get you great mileage or economy.  They traded back to a conventional vehicle

Offline freethinker

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2008, 07:39:40 PM »
cowboy, i don't necassarily know how to respond to that statement, because there are some holes in it.
 
a car that can run on alternative fuel [E85, hydrogen] is not a hybrid vehicle unless it also has the ability to run on electricity for a span of time. and most hybrid vehicles dont require you to fuel up with alternative fuel, you can use regular gasoline. 
 
so I don't know what to say as to how they decided it wasn't worth it. e85 will probably never take off as a big seller because it doesn't give you better gas mileage and is actually more expensive in some places, it just burns cleaner and is "better for the environment".
 a hybrid car has both an electric engine and an internal combustion engine, but the gasoline you put in it only kicks into use to keep the battery charged, or to help it operate for a longer period of time. so yes, you should get more use out of your gasoline depending on your driving habits.
but if you drive often and fast, or for long periods of time, electric batteries just aren't at that stage yet. having a hybrid car really does you no good.
but, if you drive less then 40 miles a day and generally don't go over 55mph, that tank of gas you have in there should last you quite some time thanks to the battery.
 
 
so, while it is economically beneficial to some people, others may find out its not. people should look into these things themselves before buying a hybrid. you should know more about what kind of mileage you will get out of it and [most importantly] under what operating conditions you have to adhere to to get it then the guy at the dealership [i heard a salesman at a car lot say hybrid's would not be beneficial in this area and thats why they had none on the lot, when clearly the setting in this area [speed limit, average distance to work] is more then ideal...] a dealer will let you be ignorant, and if you dont ask questions, they assume you already know and are eager to make that sale.
 
just buying a hybrid isn't going to save you money. it's a good start though. you have to read the manual and find out when the gas engine will kick in [what speed, how far, et cetera] and then adjust your driving habit's to use as little gasoline as possible for every day use. on a long trip at high speeds, you will have to fill up like everyone else.  that's just where the technology is right now.
 
so, sorry, the people you knew just didn't learn enough about it enough to enjoy the benefit of what they had.  or they simply had a "flex-fuel" vehicle, not a true hybrid..[/i]

Offline dixonbob

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2008, 07:49:33 PM »
I have a video of a man who has a car that runs on water. Its mingled with electric somehow and instead of H2O its HHO. Hydrogen. He can run his car solely on water and it gets about 100 miles on 4 ounces of water. Anyone that would like to watch this video I will email because its too large to post he. Its like 2.5 megs.
FOUND the ignore button. Ha Ha

Offline fish

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2008, 02:16:54 AM »
if it isn't gas or deisel, the fuel will be inconvenient. if it isn't cheaper to operate than a standard gas powered vehicle, why buy it? If the performance is less than a gas vehicle why buy it?  electric cars have been around a while, why aren't people buying them in significant numbers? the malibu isn't much bigger than the prius. I have seen both. I have a chevy cavelier that gets 34 mpg, why get any other car. it is a market economy. if the government will stop interfering, the car makers will make cars people will buy. if they don't make what buyers want they should go out of business.

Offline freethinker

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2008, 04:38:26 PM »
you know, the government hadn't been "interfering" - and the big three are on the brink of collapse.   and you are asking questions that you could easily look up the answers for yourself. they "are" cheaper to operate then a standard gas vehicle. they perform just as well as a standard gas vehicle. people have been buying them in significant numbers.
the car makers do make cars people want to buy. people just can't buy cars right now because they cant get a loan.
 
stop using the situation that has been going on in the economy for the past year as the foundation of your arguement and look at hybrid technology as a whole from the time they were introduced, and you might realize the error in your statements....
 
and stop griping about "electric cars"... there is a big difference between a hybrid and an "electric car". and there are very few electric cars on the market right now [with more slated for sale in the next few years]... 
 
your post is all over the place. you seem to have problems with alternative fuels, electric cars, and hybrids, but you have grouped them all together as the same thing and have yet to make a valid arguement against any of them other then your car gets 34mpg......     now if only we can get people to stop buying huge SUV's that get from 8-16mpg, we could all be as smart as you are...
 
 

Offline What_The?

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2008, 05:28:34 PM »
The government has been hands off big time, especially the past 8 years, and Bush rolled back fuel efficiency standards.

What fish is doing is blaming everything on Obama, as usual, or Clinton.
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline fish

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2008, 01:15:27 AM »
nope, people should buy the vehicles they want. if they want a gas guzzeler so be it.
did I mention nobama? no, I said the gov't,as in congress. who sets the cafe standards? the bailout will have strings making cars greener. unions are backed by the dems.

Offline sarah page

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2008, 02:25:43 AM »
does anyone think the idea of a "car czar" is kinda stupid.



Offline fish

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2008, 03:41:47 AM »
the idea of a car czar is stupid(and funny sounding) more gov't interference. the basis for the auto woes is the same for other businesses and housing. the credit crunch. when the banks that give loans to businesses suddenly are plagued with houses thatt were sold to people that couldn't afford them, they no longer have cash to loan. they don't have money coming in from the home buyers. it is the credit mess that has rippled out.

Offline sarah page

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2008, 01:30:03 PM »
I totally agree



Offline fish

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2008, 01:58:07 AM »
the bailout failed! W is going to give a loan from the tarp. what will that do? nothing. the big 3 will be asking for more money in a few months. bankruptcy is the answer.

Offline David Day

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2008, 03:49:36 PM »
does anyone think the idea of a "car czar" is kinda stupid.

I think considering who is going to appoint this "Czar" it is stupid.  Don't get me wrong in this statement, I am not defending the Big 3 at all, they have done some stupid things over the years to include building cars folks don't want, entering contracts nobody could afford long term, etc...
 
However, for them to sit and be raked over the coals, be expected to answer questions directed at them with anger and arrogance, to be critized for flying on private jets, etc... by the group of CEO's we call Congress is what in this whole thing is the most stupid thing I have seen.  These are the same folks that have either allowd or put (depends on where you want to put the blame but one of the two must be correct) our nation trillions of dollars in debt, receive special treatment in their jobs everyday, fly on private planes regularly, go on lobbyist junkets, just to name a few things they are complaining about the Big 3 doing.  They, as the CEO's of our nation have wasted more money than we can imagine, put us in debt, been caught in fraud and illegal activity and then they have the ultimate bail-out program...it is called taxes.
 
Both parties are guilty equally, the roles just change some.  I find it totally amazing that these are the men and women telling the Big 3 how to run a company, they can't do their own jobs.  And then to top it off, people actually believe what they say about the Big 3.  If you want someone to tell the Big 3 how to make a profit, get the CEO's from succesful companies to do the hearings, not a bunch of people that are proving everyday that they can't run a "one can milk route".
 
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Offline arcent

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2008, 09:11:15 PM »
I couldn't agree more.
 
But let me pile on. How about the audacity of these senators and congressman? They make six figure tax-payer paid incomes, are in-session less than 200 days a year, enjoy tax-payer paid health insurance, and work only FIVE years before qualifying for a pension. Here's a concession the UAW could agree to- They would accept pay and benefit cuts effective March 2009 in the same proportion as congress agrees to cut their pay and benefits. That would, of course, include all those perts like tax-payer paid travel allowances.
 
Congress wants to mandate the amount the size of worker paychecks! At least, when the unions want pay increases, they had to negotiate them with management that agreed to the pay-scale. They have a legal contract. Congress unilaterally votes itself pay increases.
 
 

Offline cowboy

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2008, 10:15:27 PM »
Its not pay per hour its legacy cost.

Offline mark

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2008, 10:23:47 PM »
Make the oil companies (the most profitable companies in the world) write them a check and bail them out.
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Offline David Day

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2008, 10:28:29 PM »
Mark, just an FYI....Government makes more per gallon of gas than the oil companies do, they also make more per pack of cigs than tobacco do.  And they still don't have enough???
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Offline mark

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2008, 10:41:22 PM »
     I have a weird feeling that the Government and big oil boys of the early 21st century will soon be holding hands and dancing while enjoying their retirement in Dubai. They will start a new game, jumping into the piles of money they stole from the American people. Have you seen this place? Its built for the extremely wealthy or "new world order" if you will.
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Offline arcent

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2008, 10:44:48 PM »
Its not pay per hour its legacy cost.

I think this is the most egregious part of the congressional request. Legacy costs are primarily those costs associated with retirees- pensions payable, retiree health care costs, etc. These people have already put in their years of service. We have no right to unilaterally cut benefits to these people.  How dare we look to cut the incomes and health care benefits of retired families!
 
I'm all for lean and mean auto companies but I do not want congress to start taking money out of the pockets of elderly people in the name of reducing "legacy costs."

Offline shadylane

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Re: auto industry woes
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2008, 01:59:38 AM »
     I have a weird feeling that the Government and big oil boys of the early 21st century will soon be holding hands and dancing while enjoying their retirement in Dubai. They will start a new game, jumping into the piles of money they stole from the American people. Have you seen this place? Its built for the extremely wealthy or "new world order" if you will.

 
Actually, they will lone it back to us with interest.
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"