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Author Topic: From One Tyrant to...  (Read 9085 times)

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Offline matrsnot

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From One Tyrant to...
« on: December 24, 2008, 03:20:58 PM »

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Lincoln tore this country apart and took away states rights which caused the American Civil War in the 1860's.  BO is going to, somehow appropriately, use the same Bible used by Lincoln to do his swearing in.
 
http://townhall.com/news/us/2008/12/23/obama_chooses_lincolns_bible_for_inauguration

Offline fish

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2008, 06:44:09 PM »
and lincoln unilaterally set aside habeas corpus,W did it through the congress.

Offline What_The?

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2008, 07:31:06 PM »
List all of your predictions and we'll see in a few years.

All of mine about Bush, unfortunately, came true.
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline matrsnot

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2008, 09:42:05 PM »
I predict this will be another Carter/Clinton administration.  I hope I am incorrect, but I also think we will have an attack on this country after BO takes over the Oval office.

Offline igahmah at work

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2008, 09:44:21 PM »
I'm just happy he is using a Bible.   ;D
When I was young, I wanted to be older.  This is not what I expected!

Offline matrsnot

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2008, 11:03:00 PM »
I'm just happy he is using a Bible.   ;D

That part I agree with. 

Offline fish

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2008, 01:56:37 AM »
he knows how to act the part. I hope it isn't a carter redux, but his policies and staff make it look that is what we will have,

It is easy to make predictions after they happen winston. what facts support the results of your predictions?
 did you predict W would keep us safe from attack for the rest of his term after 9/11?

Offline matrsnot

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2008, 07:00:43 PM »
Lincoln was a tyrant who put us on the course we are still on.  total domination by the government.  I suspect this incoming President will go even further in this same quest.

Offline prE4chEr

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2008, 07:00:23 PM »
Yeah....Lincoln was horrible.....I can't believe he freed the slaves.....what a dick.....
 
You guys are crazy.
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Offline oldcowpoke

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2008, 09:08:08 PM »
Damn Republicans anyway. Never should have given him the nomination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_Republican_National_Convention

Lincoln was a tyrant who put us on the course we are still on.  total domination by the government.  I suspect this incoming President will go even further in this same quest.

Offline prE4chEr

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2008, 09:13:39 PM »
Damn Republicans anyway. Never should have given him the nomination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_Republican_National_Convention

Stupid Republicans......they freed the slaves.....what dicks
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Offline matrsnot

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2008, 12:35:03 AM »
That war was not about slavery.  It was about states rights.  slavery was a side issue and Lincoln might not have issued the Emancipation Proclamation had it not been for the fact he needed more troops.  Lincoln, more than any other one person put this nation on the road it is still going.  Toward governmental domination of the populace.

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2008, 01:22:52 AM »
That war was not about slavery.  It was about states rights.  slavery was a side issue and Lincoln might not have issued the Emancipation Proclamation had it not been for the fact he needed more troops.  Lincoln, more than any other one person put this nation on the road it is still going.  Toward governmental domination of the populace.

Matrsnot, I am now going to say the same thing to you I have said to several other people on this board. You are not helping your cause by saying things that, even if true, are not helpful because they drive people away from conservative positions for no good reason.
 
Believe me, I understand your point. I believe the North was wrong about most things in that war **EXCEPT** slavery. My mother's ancestors were Civil War Union veterans, some of whom were imprisoned in Andersonville, but if I had lived in the late 1850s, I would have been an extremely frustrated ex-Whig who couldn't be a supporter of the Northern Democrats or the developing Republican Party. After the firing on the American flag on Fort Sumner, I probably would have rallied to the Union cause, and done so primarily because of slavery.
 
While we'll never know for sure on this side of heaven, I strongly suspect G-d used the hammer of the North to smash the Southern aristocratic slaveowning class out of existence because of their refusal, over and over and over again, to repent of their sinful wickedness in perpetuating an evil system of chattel slavery that was totally contrary to Scripture. Every other major country in the world had abolished slavery except the United States, and while we can legitimately debate whether the working conditions of the immigrants in Northern (or European) coal mines and factories were better or worse than the working conditions of the Southern slaves, the plain and obvious fact is that chattel slavery was a gross evil that was impeding industrial development of the Southern economy and had become a major international disgrace to the United States.
 
Furthermore, while we can say a lot about the way it was done, the Fourteenth Amendment **WAS** legitimately ratified and amended the Constitution to create the type of centralized republic we have now, rather than the strengthened confederation of states that the original constitution created.
 
Would that have happened without the Civil War? Maybe yes, maybe no. Centralization was in the air all over the world. Germany was being united under Prussian leadership, Italy was being unified under Garibaldi, and socialists and communists hadn't yet been proven wrong in their claims that centralized government and central economic planning is more efficient than disorganized capitalism and individual initiative.
 
But frankly, Matrsnot, none of that matters anymore.
 
Why?
 
Matrsnot, you've sworn to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution with the amendments that Abraham Lincoln brought about, and to defend it with your life if necessary. I've sworn an oath of allegience to the federal and state constitutions after election to civilian positions. It does neither of us any good to attack Lincoln; that war is done and over with, and all it does is get you attacked as a pro-slavery bigot.
 
You'd be much better off attacking FDR and the extra-constitutional usurpations of power that have happened in the current century by "reinterpreting" the constitution **WITHOUT** constitutional amendments. That's the problem we face now with the Democrats, not the problems of the Civil War.
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Offline matrsnot

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2008, 02:53:46 PM »
Point well taken Darrell.  I was pointing out facts.  I hope we never go through another civil war.  Usurpation of state power is and has been an ongoing thing.  I feel our government has way too much power as it is and they want more and are getting it.

Offline FedUp

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2008, 03:04:28 PM »
Well put Darrell, at least until that last paragraph.  You supported GW, who basically ignored our constitution when it was convenient for him to do so, yet you bash FDR, who did more good for this country in two years that GW has done in 8.  And just to set the timetable straight, FDR was in the last century, we changed centuries almost nine years ago.  Andn since we're just having nice chat, I'll throw out the ones I think were the top 5 presidents in our history, to date (in no particular order):  Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, FDR.  Ya'lls thoughts?
 

Matrsnot, I am now going to say the same thing to you I have said to several other people on this board. You are not helping your cause by saying things that, even if true, are not helpful because they drive people away from conservative positions for no good reason.
 
Believe me, I understand your point. I believe the North was wrong about most things in that war **EXCEPT** slavery. My mother's ancestors were Civil War Union veterans, some of whom were imprisoned in Andersonville, but if I had lived in the late 1850s, I would have been an extremely frustrated ex-Whig who couldn't be a supporter of the Northern Democrats or the developing Republican Party. After the firing on the American flag on Fort Sumner, I probably would have rallied to the Union cause, and done so primarily because of slavery.
 
While we'll never know for sure on this side of heaven, I strongly suspect G-d used the hammer of the North to smash the Southern aristocratic slaveowning class out of existence because of their refusal, over and over and over again, to repent of their sinful wickedness in perpetuating an evil system of chattel slavery that was totally contrary to Scripture. Every other major country in the world had abolished slavery except the United States, and while we can legitimately debate whether the working conditions of the immigrants in Northern (or European) coal mines and factories were better or worse than the working conditions of the Southern slaves, the plain and obvious fact is that chattel slavery was a gross evil that was impeding industrial development of the Southern economy and had become a major international disgrace to the United States.
 
Furthermore, while we can say a lot about the way it was done, the Fourteenth Amendment **WAS** legitimately ratified and amended the Constitution to create the type of centralized republic we have now, rather than the strengthened confederation of states that the original constitution created.
 
Would that have happened without the Civil War? Maybe yes, maybe no. Centralization was in the air all over the world. Germany was being united under Prussian leadership, Italy was being unified under Garibaldi, and socialists and communists hadn't yet been proven wrong in their claims that centralized government and central economic planning is more efficient than disorganized capitalism and individual initiative.
 
But frankly, Matrsnot, none of that matters anymore.
 
Why?
 
Matrsnot, you've sworn to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution with the amendments that Abraham Lincoln brought about, and to defend it with your life if necessary. I've sworn an oath of allegience to the federal and state constitutions after election to civilian positions. It does neither of us any good to attack Lincoln; that war is done and over with, and all it does is get you attacked as a pro-slavery bigot.
 
You'd be much better off attacking FDR and the extra-constitutional usurpations of power that have happened in the current century by "reinterpreting" the constitution **WITHOUT** constitutional amendments. That's the problem we face now with the Democrats, not the problems of the Civil War.

Offline littlejohn

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2008, 03:10:19 PM »
I'm just happy he is using a Bible.   ;D

Amen to that!!  But somehow being sworn in using one and then living to and abiding by it's teachings is a BIG difference. At least you have to admit he is a pretty sly dude...
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Offline fish

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2008, 03:12:51 PM »
where has W ignored the constituition?

Reagan was the best of the 20th century.

Offline littlejohn

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2008, 03:50:38 PM »
where has W ignored the constituition?

Reagan was the best of the 20th century.

Just do an internet search on "Bush and the Constitution" and after you have read all that "pops" up there, then you can come back sometime in the middle of next week and tell us about what you read...   :wink1a: :wink1a:
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Offline prE4chEr

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2008, 07:26:03 PM »
Reagan was the best of the 20th century.

Ha, ha.....you are hillarious. You should try stand up comedy. Seriously, Reagan's the best president of the 20th century? .........Classic........Hahaha. Wooohahaha.
 
 
Eisenhower or FDR....easy answer. Either of those two are sufficient answers, it all depends on what party you affiliate yourself with.
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Offline matrsnot

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2008, 07:57:09 PM »
Fish, ever hear of the patriot act?  That is your short answer regarding Bush's ignoring the Constitution.  He was also heard to say it was nothing "but a goddamned piece of paper."  Not saying any president was or is innocent.  They all have their faults.  Yes, FDR was the most socialist president we ever had in the last century.  He also prolonged the depression with his policies, instead of letting the economy run it's course and straighten itself out. Darrell, if one attacks me as a pro slavery bigot, then they are doing it out of ignorance of the facts at hand.

Offline fish

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2008, 08:08:38 PM »
I am asking for proof that W ignored the constituition. fedup should have no problem. If W had, why wasn't he impeached?

Look what reagan inherited and what the country was like when he left office. He won 49 of 50 states when he was reelected. We are still profiting from his presidency. He introduced tax cuts . when were taxes cut before him,double digit inflation,interest rates,unemployment. ask some of the hilitary folks what it was like then. during carter there wasn't much pride in country or support for military people. that all changed with Reagan.

ike gave us the interstate system of roads. his expansion of the new deal is not enough to make him a great president
fdr guided the country through the depression with a lot of government programs, but it was wwII that got us out of it.

Offline fish

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2008, 08:17:50 PM »
but it was also passed by wide margins by the congress. I think a lot of it was overreaction by government(which is a goal of the terrorists). I don't support rushing throgh legislation in the name of preventing terrorism.

If W ignored the constituition, he had a lot of accomplices.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2008, 10:09:00 PM »
Yes he did.  the entire congress was as guilty as he was.  perhaps more so as they passed it without reading it first.  Bush signed it knowing full wwell what was in the document.

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2008, 04:54:02 AM »
Well put Darrell, at least until that last paragraph.  You supported GW, who basically ignored our constitution when it was convenient for him to do so, yet you bash FDR, who did more good for this country in two years that GW has done in 8.  And just to set the timetable straight, FDR was in the last century, we changed centuries almost nine years ago.  Andn since we're just having nice chat, I'll throw out the ones I think were the top 5 presidents in our history, to date (in no particular order):  Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, Lincoln, FDR.  Ya'lls thoughts?

I was not a supporter of George Bush (the father). I was a reluctant supporter of George W. Bush because the realistic alternatives were worse in the Republican primary and far worse in the 2000 general election.
 
I'm seriously critical of most of the presidents of the 20th Century, including Ronald Reagan. Personally I'd probably vote for Teddy Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and Dwight Eisenhower as our three best presidents in the last 110 years, probably in that order, and still recognizing that I have serious disagreements with all three.
 
After those three, I like a lot of things that Woodrow Wilson and Harry Truman did to make America a national model of a well-governed republic that sought worldwide democracy rather than an empire, but I have a lot more problems with those two presidents than with the three I listed first.
 
I'd place the father and son Bush after Wilson and ahead of Truman. And this choice for number eight won't be popular, but my father worked for Gerald Ford and I know, in ways only family members of those who went through Watergate and its associated chaos can know, how hard Ford worked to try to put America back together after Nixon virtually destroyed trust in our government. When people talk about how vicious the media can get to family members, sit down and talk to me privately sometime about what my family had to put up with during those years.
 
But it's awfully hard to rank the presidents because the farther back you go, the farther the issues they faced are from those of today. Presidents in the early part of the century fought battles we today aren't needing to fight and it's not necessarily clear how people like Teddy Roosevelt would have handled the issues we face today since our world and our country are so radically different.
 
For example, the Republican Party was once the party of "Fortress America" and isolationism from world affairs -- a policy dating all the way back to President Washington that was an excellent idea to keep us out of more "French and Indian Wars" such as what befell us during the colonial era, but made little sense by the time of World War I and no sense at all by World War II, as technology made the Atlantic and Pacific oceans less and less of a barrier to foreign aggression. The Republican Party of the 1920s and 1930s was advocating absolutely idiotic positions on foreign policy that would have destroyed America if they had not been set aside by FDR, and advocating a "big business" platform that didn't have much concern for small businesses or farmers. At the same time, the Democrats were advocating a strong foreign policy combined with what was at best a semi-socialist economic policy in the North and a combination of racist bigotry and agrarian populism in the South.
 
I have great difficulty seeing men like President Eisenhower or President Truman or President Kennedy or President Wilson ever getting nominated by either party today, and there's no way in the world President Ford could get nominated by the Republicans today though he might make a good moderate Democrat. All five of those men were militaristic hawks by the standards of post-Vietnam politics and even President Ford would have great difficulty getting the Democratic nomination today (or even a committee chairmanship in the House or Senate), but they're not conservatives on social policy and there's no way they'd make it through the Republican primaries.
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Offline FedUp

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2008, 03:10:09 PM »
The patriot act was one reason, there are others.  He wasn't impeached because his party controlled Congress for 6 of his 8 years...he didn't even veto a bill his first 6 years because the GOP Congress gave him everything he asked for, they sure as hell weren't going to impeach him.
 
I think Reagan was a great President, but I don't think he was better than FDR.  It's thank to policies that FDR put in place that the current economic mess isn't worse than it is.  You tell me to look things up, sounds like ya'll could do some research of your own, if you dare.
 
I am asking for proof that W ignored the constituition. fedup should have no problem. If W had, why wasn't he impeached?

Look what reagan inherited and what the country was like when he left office. He won 49 of 50 states when he was reelected. We are still profiting from his presidency. He introduced tax cuts . when were taxes cut before him,double digit inflation,interest rates,unemployment. ask some of the hilitary folks what it was like then. during carter there wasn't much pride in country or support for military people. that all changed with Reagan.

ike gave us the interstate system of roads. his expansion of the new deal is not enough to make him a great president
fdr guided the country through the depression with a lot of government programs, but it was wwII that got us out of it.

Offline FedUp

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2008, 03:14:38 PM »
Well put although I disagree with some of your comments, I certainly agree with you on Ford.  He was one of my favorites even though he wasn't elected by the people, either as vice president or President.  I'm happy that history is treating his pardon of Nixon a lot better than it was treated at the time, even though I will always think he did the right thing.  Ford was a very good man and it would of been interesting to see what a full, elected Ford administration could of done for our country.  It's a shame our national politics has gotten so polorized.
 

I was not a supporter of George Bush (the father). I was a reluctant supporter of George W. Bush because the realistic alternatives were worse in the Republican primary and far worse in the 2000 general election.
 
I'm seriously critical of most of the presidents of the 20th Century, including Ronald Reagan. Personally I'd probably vote for Teddy Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan and Dwight Eisenhower as our three best presidents in the last 110 years, probably in that order, and still recognizing that I have serious disagreements with all three.
 
After those three, I like a lot of things that Woodrow Wilson and Harry Truman did to make America a national model of a well-governed republic that sought worldwide democracy rather than an empire, but I have a lot more problems with those two presidents than with the three I listed first.
 
I'd place the father and son Bush after Wilson and ahead of Truman. And this choice for number eight won't be popular, but my father worked for Gerald Ford and I know, in ways only family members of those who went through Watergate and its associated chaos can know, how hard Ford worked to try to put America back together after Nixon virtually destroyed trust in our government. When people talk about how vicious the media can get to family members, sit down and talk to me privately sometime about what my family had to put up with during those years.
 
But it's awfully hard to rank the presidents because the farther back you go, the farther the issues they faced are from those of today. Presidents in the early part of the century fought battles we today aren't needing to fight and it's not necessarily clear how people like Teddy Roosevelt would have handled the issues we face today since our world and our country are so radically different.
 
For example, the Republican Party was once the party of "Fortress America" and isolationism from world affairs -- a policy dating all the way back to President Washington that was an excellent idea to keep us out of more "French and Indian Wars" such as what befell us during the colonial era, but made little sense by the time of World War I and no sense at all by World War II, as technology made the Atlantic and Pacific oceans less and less of a barrier to foreign aggression. The Republican Party of the 1920s and 1930s was advocating absolutely idiotic positions on foreign policy that would have destroyed America if they had not been set aside by FDR, and advocating a "big business" platform that didn't have much concern for small businesses or farmers. At the same time, the Democrats were advocating a strong foreign policy combined with what was at best a semi-socialist economic policy in the North and a combination of racist bigotry and agrarian populism in the South.
 
I have great difficulty seeing men like President Eisenhower or President Truman or President Kennedy or President Wilson ever getting nominated by either party today, and there's no way in the world President Ford could get nominated by the Republicans today though he might make a good moderate Democrat. All five of those men were militaristic hawks by the standards of post-Vietnam politics and even President Ford would have great difficulty getting the Democratic nomination today (or even a committee chairmanship in the House or Senate), but they're not conservatives on social policy and there's no way they'd make it through the Republican primaries.

Offline fish

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2008, 05:23:38 PM »
Ford's main purpose was to stabilize the gov't in the wake of watergate. He knew when he pardoned nixon, his presidential hopes were gone. it was the right thing to do.

It's a shame ss didn't turn out the way it was planned. fdr greatly increased gov't spending with ccc projects and wpa jobs. these were all jobs paid for by the gov't. maybe the right way to keep people working, but at what cost?

I liked truman, he didn't lose a wink of sleep when he ordered the a-bomb to dropped. that in itself probably saved more lives than it took.

Offline oldcowpoke

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2008, 05:52:43 PM »
Thank you for stating that so succinctly!

The patriot act was one reason, there are others.  He wasn't impeached because his party controlled Congress for 6 of his 8 years...he didn't even veto a bill his first 6 years because the GOP Congress gave him everything he asked for, they sure as hell weren't going to impeach him.
 
I think Reagan was a great President, but I don't think he was better than FDR.  It's thank to policies that FDR put in place that the current economic mess isn't worse than it is.  You tell me to look things up, sounds like ya'll could do some research of your own, if you dare.

Offline fish

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2008, 06:09:37 PM »
why did pelosi say there would be no impeachment of W when the dems took control of congress. the dems could have started impeachment proceedings but didn't, why? Because despite the lame rhetoric, W did not break the law. you don't think the dems would not have impeached W if they could?

Offline shadylane

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Re: From One Tyrant to...
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2008, 08:07:56 PM »
why did pelosi say there would be no impeachment of W when the dems took control of congress. the dems could have started impeachment proceedings but didn't, why? Because despite the lame rhetoric, W did not break the law. you don't think the dems would not have impeached W if they could?

The Democratic party didn't attempt to impeach GW for two reasons.
1. They didn't have the power to get the job done.
2. It would have further divided the country.
 
By the time 70% of the country realized what a failure bush was, it was too late to do anything about it. We did less damage by just letting him go. There was no telling what he may have done if pushed into a corner.
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"