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Author Topic: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism  (Read 70468 times)

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Offline fish

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uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« on: January 14, 2009, 03:15:25 AM »

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The traditional understanding of DNA has recently been transformed beyond recognition. DNA does not, as we thought, carry a linear, one-dimensional, one-way, sequential code—like the lines of letters and words on this page. And the 97% in humans that does not carry protein-coding genes is not, as many people thought, fossilized ‘junk’ left over from our evolutionary ancestors. DNA information is overlapping-multi-layered and multi-dimensional; it reads both backwards and forwards; and the ‘junk’ is far more functional than the protein code, so there is no fossilized history of evolution. No human engineer has ever even imagined, let alone designed an information storage device anything like it. Moreover, the vast majority of its content is metainformation—information about how to use information. Meta-information cannot arise by chance because it only makes sense in context of the information it relates to. Finally, 95% of its functional information shows no sign of having been naturally selected; on the contrary, it is rapidly degenerating! That means Darwin was wrong—natural selection of natural variation does not explain the variety of life on Earth. The best explanation is what the Bible tells us: we were created—as evidenced by the marvels of DNA—but then we fell and now endure the curse of ‘bondage to decay’ by mutations...
(Excerpt) Read more at creationontheweb.com ...

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2009, 07:58:19 AM »
The best explanation is what the Bible tells us: we were created—as evidenced by the marvels of DNA—but then we fell and now endure the curse of ‘bondage to decay’ by mutations...

LOL.  You killed the entire thing with that ONE line.

Offline mark

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2009, 01:23:59 PM »
 Scroll down to the "conclusion" section of this paper and read the short paragraph. Very nice Fish!
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline shadylane

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2009, 03:27:14 PM »
I think this one covers it best. Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem - In the good old days, children like you were left to perish on windswept crags. LOL
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline mark

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2009, 09:54:30 PM »
I think this one covers it best. Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus ventosissimis exponebantur ad necem - In the good old days, children like you were left to perish on windswept crags. LOL
Yea, but only in shadylane world. Glad I don't live there.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline fish

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2009, 01:54:27 AM »
thanks mark. I enjoyed the article. and I can tell others did also. it confirms what most already knew.

Offline mark

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2009, 10:12:18 AM »
  When it comes to the "evolution vs creation" issue, science ALWAYS reverts back to the Bible and Gods creation. Why, because that's how it happened.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2009, 10:29:17 AM »
Wow... the arrogance...

LOL.

Its not even mildly entertaining lately...

YOUR BOTH BORING LATELY...

Try harder.

Offline fish

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2009, 01:41:29 PM »
lame response dn. just proves you can't disprove the article,disagree yes but, you can't disprove it.

Offline What_The?

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"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2009, 10:16:32 AM »
lame response dn. just proves you can't disprove the article,disagree yes but, you can't disprove it.

Offline mark

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2009, 11:23:30 AM »
 I chewed it and spit it out!
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline fish

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2009, 12:16:50 AM »
Lab-'evolved' Molecules Support Creation
ICR ^ | January 17, 2009 | Brian Thomas, M.S.

Lab-'evolved' Molecules Support Creation

by Brian Thomas, M.S.

Scientists attempting to demonstrate random evolution in the laboratory have found something entirely different: evidence supporting creation.

Gerald Joyce of the Scripps Research Institute coaxed an RNA-like long chain molecule, called R3C, to copy itself. The journal New Scientist stated that Joyce’s “laboratory-born ribonucleic acid (RNA) strand evolves in a test tube.” But it “evolved” only after “Joyce's team created” it. “After further lab tinkering,” Joyce’s colleague Tracy Lincoln “redesigned the molecule” so that it would replicate more effectively.1

What Joyce and his team actually discovered was how difficult it is and how much outside intervention is needed to get even these simple RNA-like molecules to form chains (which only happened when they were provided with a supply of pre-manufactured chemical “links”). The creation model—not a religious argument from ignorance, but a scientific inference from the data—is a viable historical model that would predict that the chemicals and processes of life are exactly as Joyce and other origin of life researchers find them: complex and specified.

The evolution model continues to meet a dead end with “life in a test tube” research. Even after selecting from 288 mutant molecules the ones that replicate the fastest, the scientists knew of no natural mechanism that can add new functions to those selected. “To mimic biology, a molecule must gain new functions on the fly, without laboratory tinkering. Joyce says he has no idea how to clear this hurdle with his team’s RNA molecule.”1 The potential for change for these molecules, like any machine, is limited to its maximum design potential unless retooled by an outsider.

The insistence that this laboratory work shows any kind of blind evolutionary process contradicts the fact that these research efforts were not “blind,” but directed and purposeful. Joyce even admitted that his molecules do not “have open-ended capacity for Darwinian evolution.”1 His molecules have limited potential because all molecules have limited potential. Indeed, certain ribonucleotides that are linked together to make RNA cannot form naturally in solutions. Not only the molecules themselves, but their environment limits the potential for any evolutionary progression. Even after they are carefully formed, they are very fragile. Just add water, oxygen, or light, and all the “evolutionary progress” of these molecules is destroyed. Surely, life cannot come from a purely natural cause.

Michael Robertson of the University of California, Santa Cruz, told New Scientist, “The origin of life on Earth is an historical problem that we’re never going to be able to witness and verify.”1 The question of origins cannot be investigated by direct experiment, but it can be explored by making valid inferences from an array of evidence.2

Thus, both the facts of science regarding the extreme difficulty of fashioning molecules that merely imitate select functions of life, as well as the biblical account that records the beginning of all things, unite as evidence for creation.

References

1. Callaway, E. Artificial molecule evolves in the lab. New Scientist. Posted on newscientist.com January 8, 2009, accessed January 9, 2009.

2. Thomas, B. Protocell Research: On the Verge of…a Dead End. ICR News. Posted on icr.org September 16, 2008, accessed January 14, 2009.


Offline freethinker

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2009, 06:46:52 AM »
here we go again. a bunch of christian "scientists" doing research to try and prove something that is impossible to prove or disprove... 
 
it's not science if you go into it "knowing" the answer...  you will see what you want to see.. no matter what results you get....
 
why don't we try and prove that Zues is the real force behind thunder and lightning storms while we are at it?

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2009, 01:03:59 PM »
Nah... it just proves that I'm REALLY bored with you lately.  You haven't given me much new ANYTHING lately.

You should stop trying to tell people how to live their lives and what to believe and go out and help someone else live their LIVES better.  You know the one's... the poor.  The less fortunate.  The kids without proper winter clothing... all those people that the religious crazies forget about whenever thet go on their crusades to manipulate government.

lame response dn. just proves you can't disprove the article,disagree yes but, you can't disprove it.

Offline kari

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2009, 03:55:28 PM »
Interesting note...Brian Thomas is the Science Writer for the Institute for Creation Research, so he is going to be biased in his writings.  Just as others have taken ancient scripture, translated/interpreted/reworded it to suit their needs, seems this Brian Thomas took research, reworded/interpreted it as another fine example of just that same thing!  Thank you Fish for proving, once again, how religion can change things to suit how the religion wants!

Gerald Joyce, M.D., Ph.D, is listed in the Joyce Laboratory and part of his bio research summary reads, "Just as organisms undergo Darwinian evolution in nature, molecules can be made to evolve in the test tube. This can lead to the production of molecules with interesting properties, including the ability to catalyze a particular chemical reaction. The recipe for Darwinian evolution of molecules is simple:
               
    1) Start with a large population of molecules of varying composition;
                     
                      2) Select those molecules, however rare, that have the desired chemical properties;
                     
                      3) Produce many copies of the selected molecules, introducing occasional random
                           changes  in their composition;
                     
                      4) Repeat as desired.
                   
                   
In our laboratory we have harnessed the power of Darwinian evolution as applied to populations of trillions of different RNA or DNA molecules. At their most rapid, our procedures allow us to carry out over 100 "generations" of test-tube evolution in a single day. The resulting molecules have interesting catalytic properties, teach us about evolution itself, and have potential application as therapeutic agents.
Proud to have served, US Army, WAC

Offline fish

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2009, 05:22:53 PM »
then disprove Mr. Williams article. go through the 18 references and disprove it then. brian thomas isn't the author of the article.

Offline kari

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2009, 05:25:08 PM »
then disprove Mr. Williams article. go through the 18 references and disprove it then. brian thomas isn't the author of the article.
Lab-'evolved' Molecules Support Creation

by Brian Thomas, M.S.
Proud to have served, US Army, WAC

Offline fish

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2009, 05:36:39 PM »
and where is that in Mr williams' paper?


Offline kari

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2009, 06:07:46 PM »
and where is that in Mr williams' paper?
Fish, you seem to think people can read your mind..... I had been writing about the last post you were so kind to have given as "proof"...  If you are going to switch to another post, please state what post you are referencing!  As soon as I have enough time, I will sit and read through what you are referencing, and will give my response.  I am not going to make any assumptions until I read it for myself.  The last article was posted in it's entirety, and as I am presently here preparing for company, had the time to read it, and respond.
Proud to have served, US Army, WAC

Offline fish

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2009, 08:22:52 PM »
"lab evolved" means it was altered to do in the lab what it cannot do naturally. that is why it confirms creation. read the thomas article first before critisizing. maybe read mr williams paper again.

Offline CriTTer

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2009, 08:40:33 PM »
Nah... it just proves that I'm REALLY bored with you lately.  You haven't given me much new ANYTHING lately.

You should stop trying to tell people how to live their lives and what to believe and go out and help someone else live their LIVES better.  You know the one's... the poor.  The less fortunate.  The kids without proper winter clothing... all those people that the religious crazies forget about whenever thet go on their crusades to manipulate government.

  The last thing that Jesus said to his disciples was to " Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"  helping the poor and less forunate are good causes but you dont have to be a christian to offer aide to your brother or sister.  Its those that have not found god thats is the "works" of a christian soldier is.  So if you wonder why a christian is trying to bring someone to christ, it is the one thing that Jesus asked of us to do.

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2009, 10:41:44 PM »
So, you are openly admitting that Christianity is a religion based around assimilation and the destruction of other cultures?

  The last thing that Jesus said to his disciples was to " Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"  helping the poor and less forunate are good causes but you dont have to be a christian to offer aide to your brother or sister.  Its those that have not found god thats is the "works" of a christian soldier is.  So if you wonder why a christian is trying to bring someone to christ, it is the one thing that Jesus asked of us to do.

Offline CriTTer

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2009, 10:49:07 PM »
So, you are openly admitting that Christianity is a religion based around assimilation and the destruction of other cultures?


never said that once rush.  i said it should be human nature to help you brother,,not just a christians job.  It may be that christians do the most help while others sit idley by.  mostly because non christians could care less and would rather be with there friends selling sex at the tittie bar   smiley for ya , so ya dont feel out of place here

Offline freethinker

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2009, 09:57:14 AM »
it should be human nature to help you brother,,not just a christians job.  It may be that christians do the most help while others sit idley by.  mostly because non christians could care less and would rather be with there friends selling sex at the tittie bar

first off.. i'm offended that you think all non-christians are heathen's who care of nothing but themselves and sex...   but i guess I can't hold it against you. seeing as christianity is notorious for trying to repress the natural sexual tendencies of human beings for centuries...
spend some time with me [an atheist] and you may find that i have more compassion and consideration for others then the majority of people who claim to be christian. even those I don't see eye to eye with, share nothing in common, or even like as a person. I have been an atheist my entire life, so it probably is "human nature" to act in such a way....     
 
actually.. you DID say that the job of a christian ["the one thing jesus asked us to do"] was to bring others to christ. that is exactly what assimilation of non-believers means. bringing them to the church of jesus christ and telling them how and what they should do to be considered "normal" in the eyes of your congregation..
 
that sounds like the opposite of "helping others"..   
 
but you are correct. christians dont turn their backs on those who wish to live differently. instead, they campaign to force them to conform to the beliefs of christianity through laws and regulations. regardless if they have come to christ or not.   
that's not "human nature"...  it's the nature of a christian
 
 

Offline mark

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2009, 11:31:35 AM »
"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man" (Psalm 118:8).
"Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?" (Isaiah 2:22).
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2009, 12:55:00 AM »
And these scriptures theirselves are being presented by...   OH NO!  A man.

So, if you believe in these scriptures... then you must not be trusted because you are a man who puts breath in his nostrils.

This could be interpreted to rally against organized religion as well.

"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man" (Psalm 118:8).
"Stop trusting in man, who has but a breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?" (Isaiah 2:22).

Offline CriTTer

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2009, 01:45:45 AM »

first off.. i'm offended that you think all non-christians are heathen's who care of nothing but themselves and sex...   but i guess I can't hold it against you. seeing as christianity is notorious for trying to repress the natural sexual tendencies of human beings for centuries...
spend some time with me [an atheist] and you may find that i have more compassion and consideration for others then the majority of people who claim to be christian. even those I don't see eye to eye with, share nothing in common, or even like as a person. I have been an atheist my entire life, so it probably is "human nature" to act in such a way....     
 
actually.. you DID say that the job of a christian ["the one thing jesus asked us to do"] was to bring others to christ. that is exactly what assimilation of non-believers means. bringing them to the church of jesus christ and telling them how and what they should do to be considered "normal" in the eyes of your congregation..
 
that sounds like the opposite of "helping others"..   
 
but you are correct. christians dont turn their backs on those who wish to live differently. instead, they campaign to force them to conform to the beliefs of christianity through laws and regulations. regardless if they have come to christ or not.   
that's not "human nature"...  it's the nature of a christian
 
 
that was sarcasm directed at the narcosist who said christians should go and help the poor and put coats on kids.  if you read my post above i said you do not have to be a christian to offer aide to your brother or sister.  that should be Human Nature to do!  and helping someone find jesus christ and how they conduct there lives afterwards are 2 diffent things. If you grew up in a religous home or atmosphere you would know this,those who have not grew up in that atmosphere are usually the ones who try to turn helping someone find christ into a evil socialist plot to rule the world

Offline mark

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2009, 03:22:36 AM »
And these scriptures theirselves are being presented by...   OH NO!  A man.

So, if you believe in these scriptures... then you must not be trusted because you are a man who puts breath in his nostrils.

This could be interpreted to rally against organized religion as well.

The Bible is inspired by God.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline freethinker

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Re: uh oh- Astonishing DNA complexity demolishes neo-Darwinism
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2009, 02:41:09 PM »
helping someone find jesus christ and how they conduct there lives afterwards are 2 diffent things. If you grew up in a religous home or atmosphere you would know this,those who have not grew up in that atmosphere are usually the ones who try to turn helping someone find christ into a evil socialist plot to rule the world

there we go again.. making assumptions..
 
out of my entire family, there are only two people i'm aware of who are not christians. and I am one of them. the other is my younger brother.   you see, i'm from alabama.. which is the buckle on the bible belt.. so it's very hard not to come from a religious family..
i was taken to church every week from the first moment I can remember. i went to the bible studies with all the other kids. i wasn't given the choice, and i didn't care because it was fun and there were other kids to play with. i enjoyed the stories they told me. but even at that age i never accepted it as being true. sometime in 6th grade it hit me that all of these people i saw in church every week actually believed the stuff that was being told to them and expected me to believe it as well. and I just couldn't do it. it felt wrong. i told my parent's i did not want to go to church anymore and explained to them why. i then only went to church for "special events", or when we went to visit my grandmother because she wanted me to.   
 
so don't think because i decided at a very young age that all this god talk sounded like bolagna that i was raised by atheist.   a very small percentage of the people in this country are actually raised by atheist to be atheists...
 
some people just can't bring themselves to "trust" things on "faith" when they can look at the world around them with their own two eyes and see plainly that it is incorrect..
 
you are truly misguided if you think the goal of religion [especially christianity, and islam] is not to control the lifes of others, then you will never be able to see the world as I see it..  all you have to do to see the persecution of those who disagree with what the church teaches is open a newspaper. or perhaps review the laws of your state..   but being a christian you may never see this for yourself. i
 
i speak out more against christianity then other religions because i live in america, where christians run rampant... i have witnessed firsthand how christians try to get people to act in a "proper manner according to the bible".. regardless if those people have found christ or not.. 
 
it's not that i have a problem with religion itself. my objection is to the political crusade to outlaw things which the christian bible objects to. that is against the constitution this country was founded on. you would think that christians, who claim to have been persecuted for, well.. forever, could see that they are now doing it to others and would have the compassion [that the bible teaches you to have] and stop it.   
 
really.. what do you gain for making us adhere to your rules when according to you we are going to hell anyway..
the bible is supposed to be a rule book to save YOUR immortal soul. that's a personal task.   not a rule book for governing the lives of others...