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Author Topic: Don't Ask-Don't Tell  (Read 14151 times)

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Offline matrsnot

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Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« on: January 14, 2009, 06:30:48 PM »

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Once implemented, I can see lots of problems arising.  There are a few issues.  First will be the breakdown in discipline and teamwork.  Many heterosexuals may well refuse to work side by side with homosexuals.  Many will also elect not to have a room with homosexuals either.  Result?  Article 15 or Courts Martial for refusing to sleep in the same tent or room with a homosexual.  I think the policy should remain as is.  Just my feeling on it.
 
 
 
 
WASHINGTON () -- In an overlooked YouTube video posted on Friday, a spokesman for Barack Obama said the president-elect is committed to ending the policy that bars openly gay men and women from serving in the U.S. armed forces.  Barack Obama is committed to overturning "don't ask, don't tell," his spokesman, Robert Gibbs, says.    Barack Obama is committed to overturning "don't ask, don't tell," his spokesman, Robert Gibbs, says.   In a response to a question on the Web site Change.gov asking whether Obama would get rid of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs said: "You don't hear politicians give a one-word answer much. But it's 'Yes.'"
Gibbs on Wednesday expanded on his answer, saying, "There are many challenges facing our nation now and the president-elect is focused first and foremost on jump-starting this economy.
"So not everything will get done in the beginning but he's committed to following through" with ending the policy against being openly gay in the military.
The policy bans military recruiters or authorities from asking someone about his or her sexual preference, but also prohibits a service member from revealing if he or she is gay.
During the presidential campaign, Obama said he would work to end the policy, but because it is dictated by federal law, he can not ended it unilaterally.
Congress must pass legislation overturning the policy, which was put into place at the beginning of the Clinton administration. Former President Bill Clinton tried to overturn the "don't ask, don't tell" policy when he took office in 1993, but he was strenuously opposed by the military leadership.
In the last Congress, a bill was introduced in the House by Rep. Martin Meehan, D-Massachusetts, that would have implemented "a policy of nondiscrimination on the basis of sexual orientation."
The bill had 149 co-sponsors, but it never came up for a full vote in the House. It has yet to be re-introduced in the new Congress, which began last week.
"The key here is to get bills that pass the House and the Senate, that we can get to President-elect Obama to sign, and I think that we can do that, certainly, the first year of the administration," one of the co-sponsors, Democratic Rep. Ellen Tauscher of California, told CNN in November.
Public opinion appears to be shifting on the matter. A CNN/Opinion Research Corp. poll conducted December 19-21 found that 81 percent of respondents believe openly gay people should be allowed to serve in the U.S. military, while 17 percent said they shouldn't. The poll's margin of error was plus-or-minus 3 percentage points.
The chairman of the joint chiefs of staff at the time, retired Gen. Colin Powell, also believes it is time to reevaluate the policy -- although he has not said he favors its reversal.
"It's been 15 years and attitudes have changed," Powell told CNN in December. "And, so, I think it is time for the Congress, since it is their law, to have a full review of it. And I'm quite sure that's what President-elect Obama will want to do."

Offline What_The?

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2009, 06:33:40 PM »
Thousands of homosexuals have died in service of their country.

Many times that have served with honor and ditinction.

Just because you are closeted and afraid of your own hidden desires doesn't mean that those irrational fears should be catered to.
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline ex-ed

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2009, 06:46:33 PM »
    I served with many homosexuals of both sexes during my 20+ years of service and not once did their sexual orientation affect the mission or my sanity or serenity. I personally find homosexual behavior abhorrent, but I cannot hate the person involved.
    God's word calls it "an abomination," but it also condemns heterosexual infidelity along with other sins such as pride, greed, gluttony, laziness, drunkenness, and disobedience to parents, so I cannot condemn those who practice homosexuality any more than I can condemn those whose greed caused the current national financial crisis.
    Bottom line, those who err will answer for their errors to someone far greater than me, unless they turn from their erroneous ways. Those who come under that condemnation will regret it for eternity.  :th_thmuwahaha-1:
    Let homosexuals serve their nation as their hearts lead them. Those who have problems with it probably have many more-serious problems to deal with and will answer to God for their intolerance and unforgiving hatred of their fellow man.
 
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

Offline igahmah at work

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2009, 06:50:20 PM »
Way to go ex-ed.  I could not have said it better myself!!!!!!
When I was young, I wanted to be older.  This is not what I expected!

Offline ex-ed

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2009, 06:55:05 PM »
Way to go ex-ed.  I could not have said it better myself!!!!!!

Oh sure you could have! Just say what's in your heart!
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2009, 07:00:49 PM »
I am pointing out human problems.  I knew many homosexuals while in the military and even sent a couple home for their inability to keep in the closet.  many years ago.  That was my duty at the time.  I am pointing out that many soldiers will outright refuse to sleep in the same accomodations with other gender oriented soldiers.  I don't think the policy should change.  My dislike for a behavior is not a fear of it. 

Offline Coyote

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2009, 07:08:06 PM »
What does "openly" Gay mean?  Just saying they are Gay?  Or smooching on a bench by the PX or other displays of affection?  What is "openly"?
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Offline igahmah at work

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2009, 07:31:38 PM »
Well, personally I am against "pda" anyway gay or straight.  A kiss is ok but some people need to get a room.
 
You know the old saying "jealousy is a .......)  :( ;D
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Offline kari

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2009, 07:56:57 PM »
Wow, matrsnot... you just posted the most difficult thread for me.  I am all for gay rights, to include marriage.  I have family and friends that are homosexual.  One of my best friends in basic was homosexual.  Though I had no problem with homosexuals, or heterosexuals, not everyone feels the same, especially when it comes to the military!  I am so torn between my personal beliefs in respect to equal rights, and my feelings towards conformity in the military. 

I found my friend (best friend in basic) sitting on the stairs in the firewell, crying.  She told me she was a lesbian.  My response was, yea so why are you crying.  Her being a lesbian, was like someone telling me they drive fords.  Didn't mean anything to me, as I was concerned for her crying.  She explained that she was crying, because she was afraid that the Army would discover she was homosexual and she would be discharged.  She was exactly like me, a real patriot.  She just wanted to serve her Country. At the time, I really didn't understand.  How could someone's sexual orientation be seen as something that could get you dismissed from a "job", from doing something that was so much a part of you.  I know I will never forget her crying, and the honest fear she had.  Even now, it brings tears to my eyes.  She had such a strong passion for this Country that I was proud to call her my best friend.

Once I got to my permanent duty station, I was faced with another reality.  In the showers, women were openingly being sexual with one another!  Being heterosexual, seeing women with women, I found it rather disgusting, and was very vocal at telling them to handle their love life in private.  I believe I would have been just as vocal had it been heterosexual couples... or at least I hope I would have been.  I think women are generally more accepting of others as we don't seem to have as much of a problem with our sexuality as many men do.  I don't mean this offensively, but many men seem to have the need to always show they are big, tough, guys.  I would venture to say, had the situation been a heterosexual male soldier, going into the showers seeing other male soldiers involved in homosexual acts, it may not have been a nice "talking to".

Now comes the problem.  Our military must act as a team.  Each part of that team has a role to play.  What if, one or more members of that team feels the disgust I felt (in the shower) and carries it over to their job?  I had no problem with any of the ladies outside of the shower incident(s), but others may not be able to let it go.

I wish I knew the answer, but the more I think it out, the more difficult it all becomes to me.  I am interested in knowing everyone's thoughts on this subject, and hope that eventually, I can come to some peace in respect to it.
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Offline 48fan

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2009, 08:05:33 PM »
I will say only this in regards to this situation. Out of sight is out of mind. In plain site it will be a HUGE problem.
 
Kari I agree. The situation will carry over to the job and bad things will probably come out of it.
 
Just hope we survive all these "CHANGES".  ;D

Offline fish

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2009, 02:18:56 AM »
I have no idea if I served with gay people or not.that is how it should be. the military is made up of rules and regualtions for a reason. we do not pick which ones to obey. If someone willingly violates one regulation, what other regulation will they violate?

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2009, 02:39:34 AM »
I always meant to ask.  Winston were you ever in the military?

Offline Vado Del Rio

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2009, 03:01:50 AM »
How do you know if a dead person was a homosexual in the military?  All those serving prior to "don't ask, don't tell" were serving in violation of military law.  Furthermore, they falsified documentation when asked about their sexual preference.  Even after the policy was enacted, one couldn't disclose their sexuality.  Please help me out here....................

Offline prE4chEr

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2009, 03:10:19 AM »
I have no idea if I served with gay people or not.that is how it should be. the military is made up of rules and regualtions for a reason. we do not pick which ones to obey. If someone willingly violates one regulation, what other regulation will they violate?

That is precisely why the regulations are going to be changed. Then people don't have to violate them, and you won't have to worry about what other ones they are willing to violate. We are doing this for your peace of mind, fish.
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Offline Vado Del Rio

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2009, 03:17:27 AM »
prE4chEr,  I must admit that I couldn't adapt to today's military environment.

Offline prE4chEr

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2009, 03:34:47 AM »
prE4chEr,  I must admit that I couldn't adapt to today's military environment.

It's a whole new world.
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8NKp4sGe14
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Offline Vado Del Rio

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2009, 04:57:22 AM »
Your video is "The dawning of the age of Aquarius"

Offline prE4chEr

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2009, 05:06:45 AM »
Your video is "The dawning of the age of Aquarius"

Nah, I'm not gay hippie. I am Hendrix, Skynryd, Doors, Zeppelin, etc hippie. Like good ol boy hippie.
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Offline Vado Del Rio

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2009, 05:26:27 AM »
The most serious affliction imaginable would be one torn between "Disco & The Age of Aquarius"

Offline fish

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2009, 01:38:49 PM »
nope again preach. the military is an organization that operates under good order and discipline. you probably can't comprehend that, but the military is a unique organization that requires things the civilian world doesn't need.

Offline Coyote

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2009, 02:34:09 PM »
When I enlisted prior to "don't ask, don't tell", I don't remember ever having to mark a document with what my "sexual preference" was...
 
How do you know if a dead person was a homosexual in the military?  All those serving prior to "don't ask, don't tell" were serving in violation of military law.  Furthermore, they falsified documentation when asked about their sexual preference.  Even after the policy was enacted, one couldn't disclose their sexuality.  Please help me out here....................
....and that night as the moon crossed the mountain, one more Coyote was heard...

Offline Vado Del Rio

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2009, 04:04:28 PM »
I think it was more like a yes-no questionire.  Perhaps the recruiter filled this out because I specifically recall being asked about sexual preference.  Numerous questions were asked from my recollection, similar to that of a medical questionnaire.  Obviously we had to sign something for it to be legally binding.  Man we're talking 30 years ago here.  Feb. 1979

Offline prE4chEr

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2009, 06:20:40 PM »
nope again preach. the military is an organization that operates under good order and discipline. you probably can't comprehend that, but the military is a unique organization that requires things the civilian world doesn't need.

Nope again? As for good order and discipline, that is precisely why eliminating "don't ask, don't tell" will cause little if any problems. If the military is so disciplined, they could handle a little butt sex.
 
You are probably a little right though. If the people on here are any indication, the military could be filled with whiny sensitive homophobes who couldn't do their jobs if they knew there was a gay person around. If they let gay people in, all the current military members are going to get real sad and not do their jobs. It will be a real problem for morale.
 
What exactly does the military require that the civilian world doesn't need?
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Offline kari

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2009, 06:39:35 PM »
When I enlisted prior to "don't ask, don't tell", I don't remember ever having to mark a document with what my "sexual preference" was...
I enlisted during the Vietnam era..... I don't ever remember being asked such a question either!
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Offline kari

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2009, 06:40:34 PM »
I think it was more like a yes-no questionire.  Perhaps the recruiter filled this out because I specifically recall being asked about sexual preference.  Numerous questions were asked from my recollection, similar to that of a medical questionnaire.  Obviously we had to sign something for it to be legally binding.  Man we're talking 30 years ago here.  Feb. 1979
Is it possible only males were asked?
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Offline kari

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2009, 06:49:30 PM »

Nope again? As for good order and discipline, that is precisely why eliminating "don't ask, don't tell" will cause little if any problems. If the military is so disciplined, they could handle a little butt sex.
 
You are probably a little right though. If the people on here are any indication, the military could be filled with whiny sensitive homophobes who couldn't do their jobs if they knew there was a gay person around. If they let gay people in, all the current military members are going to get real sad and not do their jobs. It will be a real problem for morale.
 
What exactly does the military require that the civilian world doesn't need?
Hey, watch that!  I am NOT a "whiny, sensitive, homophobe" and I'm on this board.  Yes, there are homophobics in the military, and in the civilian world, but not everyone is homophobic.  The military life is very different from civilian life, and that's where I do have concern.  I just don't know how it would all work out, having a heterosexual male (possiblly homophobic) having to shower, sleep, and fight along side someone that he may have an aversion for.  I don't think women in the military would have as much of a problem with it, as (no offense meant towards the men) we do seem to be able to adapt to different situations a tad more.  I'm sure there will be those that disagree with me, but I've personally seen more heterosexual woman accept homosexuals for who they are, as oppose to what they are, more frequently than heterosexual males do.
Proud to have served, US Army, WAC

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2009, 06:50:09 PM »
Not sad Preacher.  Pissed off at having to share a room with a homosexual and not having a damn thing to say about it will destroy morale. You seeem to think those not wanting to associate with homosexuals are all homophobes and they should be somehow ashamed because they don't want to associate with them.  Cut the political correctness BS and get to the real issue.  There are mixed feelings about this don't ask don't tell thing.  I wanted to raise the issue and get others to think about this a bit. there have been some interesting answers so far.  I enlisted in 1969 and WAS asked.

Offline Geezer Glide Taz

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2009, 06:51:36 PM »
I no more condone Homosexuality than most of you do, Not for religious reason, it just does not seem right to me, and just grosses me out at the thought. But that does not mean that I nor anyone has the right to bar them from the military nor marriage.
I have heard the old religion excuse before. It was used then on why a black man should not be allowed to marry a white women. Thank god we moved passed that huh? So basically this is our next major prejudice right? We are against homosexual marriages the same way our parents were against interracial marriages. It was new and there for not accepted.
 
Same goes for the military. Wasn't too many years ago, Black troops were not allowed to be in the same barracks with white soldiers. And everyone said it was because a white soldier would never allow himself to be in the same room. Glad we moved on past that huh?
 
There is no reason why this can't work. I not only knew plenty of Homosexuals while I was in, and their sexuality never affected their job performance nor effected any of the soldiers they were in the same barracks with, there were plenty of heterosexuals in there that had some very weird ideas about what was normal for sex that I would rather have nothing to do with (I could tell you stories for days) , but they were still good soldiers.
 
Bottom line, a persons color, religion nor his or her preference should never be a factor in being able to serve in the Armed Forces protecting this country.
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Offline ex-ed

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2009, 07:01:17 PM »
I no more condone Homosexuality than most of you do, Not for religious reason, it just does not seem right to me, and just grosses me out at the thought. But that does not mean that I nor anyone has the right to bar them from the military nor marriage.
I have heard the old religion excuse before. It was used then on why a black man should not be allowed to marry a white women. Thank god we moved passed that huh? So basically this is our next major prejudice right? We are against homosexual marriages the same way our parents were against interracial marriages. It was new and there for not accepted.
 
Same goes for the military. Wasn't too many years ago, Black troops were not allowed to be in the same barracks with white soldiers. And everyone said it was because a white soldier would never allow himself to be in the same room. Glad we moved on past that huh?
 
There is no reason why this can't work. I not only knew plenty of Homosexuals while I was in, and their sexuality never affected their job performance nor effected any of the soldiers they were in the same barracks with, there were plenty of heterosexuals in there that had some very weird ideas about what was normal for sex that I would rather have nothing to do with (I could tell you stories for days) , but they were still good soldiers.
 
Bottom line, a persons color, religion nor his or her preference should never be a factor in being able to serve in the Armed Forces protecting this country.

On the money, Taz! Let's live and let live.
I agree with others though, who have said that PDA should be restricted. There's a time and place for everything, and out in public is not the place for overt physical friendliness. That's why G-d made bedrooms and motels!
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Offline igahmah at work

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Re: Don't Ask-Don't Tell
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2009, 07:10:41 PM »
I don't know, I kinda think that most gay people in the military, even if told it doesn't make a difference, won't want to  shout from the rooftop that they are gay.  I think they will still be afraid of being ostricized from the rest of the guys.  Nothing overt or physical harm, just not being considered one of the "guys" if they knew.  And you can't make them like someone, you can only tell them they can't beat them up or discriminate in promotions and such.  But I think people in the military enjoy the comraderie that they have with other members of the military and given a choice would probably want to keep their sexual orientation to themselves.  JMHO

If I were married and was cheating on my husband I wouldn't want everybody to know that either.  If I was married and we had great sex the night before, I would keep that to myself too.  Sex and the discussion of such, has no place in the workplace whether gay or hetero.
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