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Author Topic: Constitutional Subversion  (Read 3713 times)

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Offline matrsnot

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Constitutional Subversion
« on: January 14, 2009, 06:46:41 PM »

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Qualifying firearms include ALL handguns and any semiautomatic firearm.  Also will keep us from trading or selling to our friends etc.  I gave up the link in addition to this short version.  For your viewing pleasure and observance of subversion of the US Constitution.  Shades of Illinois and Chicago politics here.  Sorry.  I don't and won't need another license in order to have or transfer any firearms I MIGHT have.  This is purely registration.  The next step will be confiscation and tyranny can try to prevail.  Not buying this at all.
 
H.R.45
Title: To provide for the implementation of a system of licensing for purchasers of certain firearms and for a record of sale system for those firearms, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Rush, Bobby L. [IL-1] (introduced 1/6/2009) Cosponsors (None)
Latest Major Action: 1/6/2009 Referred to House committee. Status: Referred to the House Committee on the Judiciary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUMMARY AS OF:
1/6/2009--Introduced.
Blair Holt's Firearm Licensing and Record of Sale Act of 2009 - Amends the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act to prohibit a person from possessing a firearm unless that person has been issued a firearm license under this Act or a state system certified under this Act and such license has not been invalidated or revoked. Prescribes license application, issuance, and renewal requirements.

Prohibits transferring or receiving a qualifying firearm unless the recipient presents a valid firearms license, the license is verified, and the dealer records a tracking authorization number. Prescribes firearms transfer reporting and record keeping requirements. Directs the Attorney General to establish and maintain a federal record of sale system.

Prohibits: (1) transferring a firearm to any person other than a licensee, unless the transfer is processed through a licensed dealer in accordance with national instant criminal background check system requirements, with exceptions; (2) a licensed manufacturer or dealer from failing to comply with reporting and record keeping requirements of this Act; (3) failing to report the loss or theft of the firearm to the Attorney General within 72 hours; (4) failing to report to the Attorney General an address change within 60 days; or (5) keeping a loaded firearm, or an unloaded firearm and ammunition for the firearm, knowingly or recklessly disregarding the risk that a child is capable of gaining access, if a child uses the firearm and causes death or serious bodily injury.

Prescribes criminal penalties for violations of firearms provisions covered by this Act.

Directs the Attorney General to: (1) establish and maintain a firearm injury information clearinghouse; (2) conduct continuing studies and investigations of firearm-related deaths and injuries; and (3) collect and maintain current production and sales figures of each licensed manufacturer.

Authorizes the Attorney General to certify state firearm licensing or record of sale systems.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d111:HR00045:@@@D&summ2=m&



http://www.thefiringline.com/HCI/molon_labe.htm

Offline What_The?

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2009, 07:30:11 PM »
Works for me.

They have much more detailed records on your car.

Why cry about records about guns?
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2009, 07:45:23 PM »
Registration = Confiscation.  Molon LABE

Offline What_The?

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2009, 08:06:02 PM »
Explain that.

EVERYTHING you own that has any value is registered.
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline Vado Del Rio

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2009, 11:23:39 PM »
Rush is a brain dead moron.  If you've ever heard him in an interview or on one of his rants, you'd understand.

Offline Just_a_Biker

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2009, 11:30:37 PM »
I wish them luck.  I'm not registering anything; if you come a knockin at my door... well, we'll just leave it at that.
The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. Cicero - 55 BC, Rome

Offline What_The?

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2009, 11:41:58 PM »
Yes, because keeping track of weapons so terrorists can't illegally obtain them is worth shooting the government official over.
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline Vado Del Rio

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2009, 11:43:09 PM »
He just wants to elevate Illinois gun control laws to a national standard. Obviously it hasn't worked in Chicago.  What a jerk and what a JOKE !!!

Offline Vado Del Rio

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2009, 11:47:06 PM »
Boarder and port security would be a better remedy for terrorist infiltration.  That ain't gonna happen either with the "comprehensive reform approach".............

Offline I have no username

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2009, 12:27:46 AM »
This bill is just a stepping stone.  Isnt illegal for criminals to have guns anyway?  The bill doesnt serve any purpose but to give the govt more control.  This and trying to repeal the 22 Amendment.... those democrats are really looking for a tea party.  Write your reps.  I will.
Μολὼν λαβέ

If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.
Dwight D. Eisenhower

Offline Just_a_Biker

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2009, 12:29:46 AM »
Yes, because keeping track of weapons so terrorists can't illegally obtain them is worth shooting the government official over.

Really?  And just WHEN was the last time a terrorist obtained a weapon "legally"??  Gun control doesn't work, EDUCATION works.  Thugs never have, and never will obtain their weapons legally.  Wake up before you end waking up to boys in pretty blue hats telling you (in French, or Arabic) to register your electric can opener.
The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. Cicero - 55 BC, Rome

Offline fish

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2009, 01:16:55 AM »
 new laws are only for the law abiding. criminals don't care about the laws. all they do is restrict gun ownership for the law abiding. The less said to the gov't the better. A good review of history will answer the why's. what did hitler do? what are the crime rates in the UK,canada,australia? the dems refuse to defend this country but they have no problem trying to disarm it's citizens. think it can't happen here? I hope not, but that doesn't mean the attempt to disarm us won't be made.

Offline I have no username

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2009, 01:50:09 AM »
I foresee this...economy is taking a dump.  People are loosing jobs...no incomes = no incoming taxes...economy takes more of a dump...people commit crimes just to get by... get arrested and penal system cannot handle overload...criminal rates skyrocket... people are now being disarmed...making more victims or more criminals (Aka gunowners)... = downward spiral as well. 

Hnag on, we're in for a ride!
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If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.
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Offline matrsnot

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2009, 02:25:40 AM »
Yes, because keeping track of weapons so terrorists can't illegally obtain them is worth shooting the government official over.

Remember you said that, not me.  Are you threatening law enforcement officials?  Or just the UN Blue Helmets who will make the attempt?  No terrorist would ever get my weapons.....if I had any.  With Eric No Holder as AG, every gun will become illegal.  I beleive he filed an amicus brief stating DC's unconstitutional laws are constitutional.  Guess what?   He lost.

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2009, 12:36:23 PM »
Works for me.
They have much more detailed records on your car.
Why cry about records about guns?

Maybe it's because driving is a privilege that can be revoked, but gun ownership is a constitutionally protected right?
 
We've gotten so used to registering things and complying with government regulations that we act as if we need government permission for any major act in life. That simply isn't true. Some things are fundamental rights that the government **CANNOT** legally abridge, and those include gun ownership, freedom of speech and of the press, the free exercise of religion, and similar areas of life.
 
Think how much protesting would happen if somebody tried to argue that nobody can preach in a church or be a reporter for a newspaper or write on a message board without first applying for a government license and passing a test. Sound crazy? Of course it does.... you have an absolute right under the United States Constitution to do all of those things without government regulation. Gun ownership is the same thing.
 
And before people think I am being silly, numerous countries in the world today require government "accreditation" not only for foreign citizens to report in their countries (which is legitimate) but also for their own citizens to work for their own newspapers. At the time the Constitution was written, government licenses to preach **WERE** required not only in England but also had been required in several of the colonies as late as the early 1700s. Most of those laws were not very strictly enforced in what was still a frontier society, but traveling evangelists of "unapproved creeds" (Presbyterianism in New York, Quakers in Massachussetts, and Baptists in several different colonies) were periodically jailed if they offended the local civil authorities on the grounds that they failed to possess a license to preach. Newspapers were regulated in ways that would be inconceivable today. And people were sometimes fined and thrown in jail for the mere act of signing their names to petitions asking their colonial governments for redress of grievances.
 
The Bill of Rights was written to stop that kind of abuse. Confiscation or registration of guns by the government was not a problem in frontier society because everybody understood the need for personal defense, but even in major American post-colonial cities, the founders of the United States fully understood that an armed citizenry was what had just won America its freedom from English tyranny. However, rather than just taking that freedom for granted, the Second Amendment was written into the Constitution to make sure no future American government would be able to engage in the restrictions on private ownership of weapons that were common in Europe.
Darrell Todd Maurina
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Offline shadylane

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2009, 01:26:28 PM »
"Maybe it's because driving is a privilege that can be revoked, but gun ownership is a constitutionally protected right?"
 
Does this mean that everyone has the right to own a firearm with no exceptions?
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline DollarBill

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2009, 01:30:24 PM »
Bullseye Darrel  Give that boy a cookie and an A plus.

As for matrsnot's   Molon lave  In greek it means "come get them."  When the 300 stood against the Persian army, they were told to lay down their arms.  Molon Lave.  Moe Lon  Lah Vey.  Come get them was their answer.

Mine too.

$Bill
I was alright . . .   I got over it.   
It takes 43 muscles to frown; 17 to Smile.
But Only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze....

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2009, 01:56:46 PM »
"Maybe it's because driving is a privilege that can be revoked, but gun ownership is a constitutionally protected right?"
 
Does this mean that everyone has the right to own a firearm with no exceptions?

Merely to "own a firearm?" Unless you've been convicted of a felony or treason, yes. The constitutional guarantee that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" means what it says.
 
And that's the way the Founding Fathers intended. An American citizen convicted of a very serious crime by a jury of his peers loses certain parts of his rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Rebellion and violent overthrow of the government were very real concerns in post-colonial America, and the government has the right to strip armed rebels of their arms once they've been convicted of treason. Same for felony crimes. But for law abiding citizens, gun ownership is a right, not a privilege.
 
Carrying that weapon concealed requires a permit -- and that's legitimate. Also, property owners have the right to put conditions on entering their property, so if they want to say nobody can enter their property with a gun, that's legitimate, too.
 
But if you want to walk around on the public street with gun in your holster, you've got a constitutional right to be stupid. More to the point, if you want to own a gun in your own house for your own protection, nobody has a right to tell you "no."
 
Also, the founding fathers didn't intend to allow private ownership of cannons or artillery pieces ("bearing arms" is intended to refer to hand-carried weapons, not things larger than that), and that rationale has been used to give the government the ability to regulate machine guns. That's probably legitimate, though even back in the Al Capone days when the machine gun regulations were adopted, there were concerns about the "nose in the camel's tent" that have clearly been proven to be legitmate concerns.
Darrell Todd Maurina
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Offline Just_a_Biker

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2009, 01:57:51 PM »
"Maybe it's because driving is a privilege that can be revoked, but gun ownership is a constitutionally protected right?"
 
Does this mean that everyone has the right to own a firearm with no exceptions?

YES!!
The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. Cicero - 55 BC, Rome

Offline shadylane

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2009, 02:47:24 PM »
What about the mentaly unstable. Do I have the right to not allow someone on my property with a firearm?
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2009, 03:34:21 PM »
What about the mentaly unstable. Do I have the right to not allow someone on my property with a firearm?

Second question first. Absolutely yes. Your private property rights are also constitutionally protected. And that's why cities and schools have the right to bar guns from their property, ban smoking, etc... and it's the foundation of the right to require driver's licenses to operate a motor vehicle on state, city or county-owned roads.
 
If a person has been judged by a court to be mentally unstable and a danger to himself or others, common law dating back to England has allowed mentally ill people to be confined for their own protection, or have other limits placed on their rights.
 
None of that would have been unfamiliar to the Founding Fathers -- in Boston of the late 1700s, it was perfectly normal for owners of businesses to tell people that they couldn't carry guns into their establishments.
Darrell Todd Maurina
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Offline matrsnot

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2009, 03:46:42 PM »
Sometime ago, I posted an article on the mentally ill.  Read it.  If you want to keep people (other than law enforcement) off your property, you must post it in accordance with RSMo 571. 

Seems to me we are having a large influx of items and this proposed law is one of them, which models the US after the Peoples Republic of Illannoy.  This proposed law is also unconstitutional in accordance with Article 1, Section 9 of the US Constitution, not to mention the 2d Amendment.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2009, 07:32:17 PM »
Here is a breakdown about and of the intended law.

http://www.examiner.com/x-1417-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m1d14-Kill-the-bill

Offline FedUp

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2009, 10:36:53 PM »
I wish you folks would get just as excited about another potential abuse of our rights and that's eminent domain.  Never see it discussed on here, but believe me it's just as dangerous,even with the revised law in 2006.

Offline Just_a_Biker

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2009, 12:03:54 AM »
I wish you folks would get just as excited about another potential abuse of our rights and that's eminent domain.  Never see it discussed on here, but believe me it's just as dangerous,even with the revised law in 2006.

I honestly don't know that much about it, but I suppose if I were ever in a position where it would directly effect me I'd get to know a whole lot more.
The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. Cicero - 55 BC, Rome

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2009, 02:03:24 AM »
Eminent Domain; A policy whereby the government at any level can steal your property so it can make more money in the tax base.  Not the original intent I don't believe, but that is the way it is now.  If your house is in the way of a new mall and the powers that be want your property, they can steal it at "a fair price".  They simply find a way to "condemn" your property and then take it away from you.

Back to subject of the thread.  For those who are not aware, Article 1, Section 9 refers to ex post facto.  They can't make a law and then prosecute you for it when it was lawful prior to the inception of the law.  This will be conveniently ignored as this article is already ignored daily in this country regarding bills of attainder.  The taking of property without due process. 

Offline FedUp

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2009, 04:36:21 AM »
It can be fixed two ways:  First, define blight in the law.  Currently, blight is whatever the entity wanting to take the property says it is.  Hard to beat it.  Second, a state constitutional amendment that allows property to be taken ONLY for full public use (i.e. highways, federal buildings etc).  It can be fixed but it will take the people uniting to make it happen.
 
Otherwise, the foundation for capitalism in our state and country is at risk.
 
Eminent Domain; A policy whereby the government at any level can steal your property so it can make more money in the tax base.  Not the original intent I don't believe, but that is the way it is now.  If your house is in the way of a new mall and the powers that be want your property, they can steal it at "a fair price".  They simply find a way to "condemn" your property and then take it away from you.

Back to subject of the thread.  For those who are not aware, Article 1, Section 9 refers to ex post facto.  They can't make a law and then prosecute you for it when it was lawful prior to the inception of the law.  This will be conveniently ignored as this article is already ignored daily in this country regarding bills of attainder.  The taking of property without due process.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2009, 06:19:31 PM »
Darrell, there are certain provisions about guns and schools and cities.  No city in this state can pre-empt state law concerning the carry of concealed weapons.  Additionally, those having a CCW from this state can actually have the weapon on school grounds as long as it is not brandished and is left in the vehicle.  They cannot carry inside the school buildings.  There are provisions for not having a weapon within 1000 feet of a school also.  They do not apply to persons living within that perimeter as long as they can legally own the firearm. 

Offline Vado Del Rio

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2009, 06:43:33 PM »
I wonder if newly appointed Senator Roland Burris (d) Illannoy is a progun advocate?

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Constitutional Subversion
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2009, 08:17:48 PM »
Understood... I was answering a question about the constitutional extent of the Secoind Amendment right to keep and bear arms in the context of the authority, based on property rights, of both private owners and government owners to control who can come onto their land. The Founding Fathers would have understood that if a Quaker wants to prevent people from carrying guns into his general store or onto his farm, he has every right to do that.
 
"Home Rule" and "local authority" today mean much more than states' rights, but at the time the Constitution was written, states' rights were pretty much unquestioned There's not any doubt in my mind that the delegates to the constitutional convention as well as the members of every state legislature that approved the Second Amendment would have agreed that a state legislature has the right to tell a school district or local city what it can and cannot do. State control over local units of government was much tighter in those days than it is today, even though federal authority over the states was far weaker.
 
Darrell, there are certain provisions about guns and schools and cities.  No city in this state can pre-empt state law concerning the carry of concealed weapons.  Additionally, those having a CCW from this state can actually have the weapon on school grounds as long as it is not brandished and is left in the vehicle.  They cannot carry inside the school buildings.  There are provisions for not having a weapon within 1000 feet of a school also.  They do not apply to persons living within that perimeter as long as they can legally own the firearm.
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