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Author Topic: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.  (Read 22486 times)

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Offline freethinker

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Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« on: February 23, 2009, 05:30:02 PM »

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A chart showing public acceptance of evolution in 34 countries. The United States ranked near the bottom, beat only by Turkey. Credit: Science
 
The results of a global poll show that American's lag behind the rest of the world in the acceptance of biological and genetic evidence supporting evolution. Adults in each country were asked wether they thought the statement "Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals" was True, False, or Not Sure.
 
As you can see from the results of the study, the only country that did worse then us was Turkey.
 
Which says a lot if you think about it. Mainly, that American Christians are more fundamentalist then anyone in the world except Islamic Fundamentalist, by a very small margin. But also that Americans with fundamentalist religious beliefs are more then likely to denounce evolution then Europeans who hold similar religious beliefs. This is most likely the effect of the politicization of science and a literal interpretation of the bible by the religious right in this country.
 
In a similar study, adults from around the world were asked, on a scale of 1 to 10 in how much they believed it to be true, that "all plants and animals have dna".  The average score of American's was 4. Pathetic. Proof in itself that those who wish to rally against evolution in support of creationism have a very poor understanding of biology and genetics, both of which are important areas to understand when discussing evolution.
 
This would not be a problem in this country if those who wish to take the bible literally would stop standing in the way of teaching our nations population the facts about science rather then propagating creationism. It's quite embarassing to realize that the majority of the worlds adults are more willing to accept the findings of the scientific community [which is a global community] then the average American....
 
 
 
 
 

Offline igahmah at work

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2009, 05:45:41 PM »
This surprises you?  Our country was founded on Christian beliefs and has grown to the great country that it is on Christian beliefs.  The best thing about this country, nobody makes you stay here.  You are free to come and go as you please, so please, leave if you are not happy here.  Looks like Iceland would fit your purposes and plans. 
When I was young, I wanted to be older.  This is not what I expected!

Offline freethinker

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2009, 05:55:28 PM »
This surprises you?  Our country was founded on Christian beliefs and has grown to the great country that it is on Christian beliefs.  The best thing about this country, nobody makes you stay here.  You are free to come and go as you please, so please, leave if you are not happy here.  Looks like Iceland would fit your purposes and plans.

lol. predictable answer. rather then face reality you would prefer those who disagree with you just move somewhere else..   laughable.

Offline ex-ed

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2009, 05:58:31 PM »
    Freethinker: Can't help but notice that Turkey was the only islamic nation listed. Where are the others?
    In fact, this was touted as a "global poll" but the nations listed are exclusively European -- except for the U.S. and Turkey. Could it be that someone (?) conveniently cut the list off just below the U.S. and Turkey to make it look like the U.S. was next to the "worst"? Where do the other 200+ nations  of the world stand in this "global" poll?
    You also conveniently omitted the reason why this belief system is a supposed threat? How does it threaten YOU? Does your peace of mind depend on the rest of us agreeing with your world view?
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

Offline igahmah at work

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2009, 06:04:21 PM »
I am facing reality, the reality is that most of the people in this country agree with me. 
When I was young, I wanted to be older.  This is not what I expected!

Offline freethinker

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2009, 06:15:33 PM »
    Freethinker: Can't help but notice that Turkey was the only islamic nation listed. Where are the others?
    In fact, this was touted as a "global poll" but the nations listed are exclusively European -- except for the U.S. and Turkey. Could it be that someone (?) conveniently cut the list off just below the U.S. and Turkey to make it look like the U.S. was next to the "worst"? Where do the other 200+ nations  of the world stand in this "global" poll?
    You also conveniently omitted the reason why this belief system is a supposed threat? How does it threaten YOU? Does your peace of mind depend on the rest of us agreeing with your world view?

hmm..  global poll = includes countries from around the globe. i never claimed it polled every country on the planet.  dont read to much into it. turkey is a rather safe islamic country to be going around polling people about evolution. you won't be arrested or murdered for being a heretic...
 
i believe my opinion on how it threatens america was quite clear. fundamentalists in this country are crusading against evolution and our population is blindly accepting the idea that evolution is not a fact just because christianity is argueing against it.  considering the multitude of fields of science that are reliant on the facts produced by an understanding of evolution, it's scary to consider the implications this line of thinking will have with future generations trying to compete with other countries in the fields of science..
 
I am facing reality, the reality is that most of the people in this country agree with me. 

yes, and the majority of the other free nations disagree with you. kind of similar to when we decided we should invade iraq. funny how that turned out eh?
 
the point is, only 4 out of 10 people in this country believe evolution to be a fact. when there is a substantial ammount of evidence that proves it to be. how can you not see the issue with that?  that's like 4 out of 10 people believing the sky to be blue and the rest of them think it is actually green. all you have to do is look up and you'll see its blue, but you refuse to. you would rather believe it is green.  that's ridiculous. and it all falls on the shoulders of the religious fundamentalist in this country. they are convincing people to disagree with a global consensus within in the scientific community that evolution is a fact with mountains of evidence to support it.
 
it's the most preposterous thing i've ever seen...

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2009, 06:16:33 PM »
A chart showing public acceptance of evolution in 34 countries. The United States ranked near the bottom, beat only by Turkey. Credit: Science
 
The results of a global poll show that American's lag behind the rest of the world in the acceptance of biological and genetic evidence supporting evolution. Adults in each country were asked wether they thought the statement "Human beings, as we know them, developed from earlier species of animals" was True, False, or Not Sure. ... This would not be a problem in this country if those who wish to take the bible literally would stop standing in the way of teaching our nations population the facts about science rather then propagating creationism. It's quite embarassing to realize that the majority of the worlds adults are more willing to accept the findings of the scientific community [which is a global community] then the average American....

OK, freethinker. Would you please explain just how, since "the majority of the world's adults are more willing to accept the findings of the scientific community than the average American" why it is that America has for half a century been the world's leader in most scientific fields?

I'll grant that Japan has been a leader in technological development, and so were Britain and Germany in an earlier generation, but I'm not aware that Iceland, Denmark, Sweden and France (the top four nations listed as accepting evolution) are known worldwide as centers of scientific excellence or have been anytime in the last century or so.

In fact, your chart doesn't have any relationship to the most scientifically and technologically advanced nations. Since when were Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania, and the Czech and Slovak republics considered to be centers of technological development? And I wonder where Korea, which has a higher percentage of evangelical Christians than the United States, would rank on that chart?

What your chart really shows is that evolution is most widely accepted in 1) former communist countries, where Marxism and Darwinism were very closely linked in the educational system as a matter of Hegelian principle, and 2) stridently secular Western democracies where Darwinism has long considered to be the best explanation of human origins and not just Christianity but religion itself has been ridiculed for a century or more.
 
(And just to be clear, I am **NOT** saying that Darwin and Marx are necessarily linked. I do not believe that at all -- it's perfectly possible to be a capitalist conservative and a supporter of "economic Darwinism" or "survival of the fittest." But Communist theory **DID** believe that Darwinism and Marxism are both closely linked because "dialectical materialism" argued that evolutionary theory was the explanation in the biological sphere of the same underlying principles that Marx taught in the economic sphere. The result is that Communist schools very aggressively taught evolution for philosophical as well as scientific reasons.)

Even if you want to argue that large majorities of Americans are stupid for accepting the biblical account of creation and opposing Darwinism, it looks like that hasn't had any measurable effect on America's scientific progress.
Darrell Todd Maurina
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Offline What_The?

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2009, 06:32:23 PM »
It isn't fundamental christianity that is the problem, accepting and praising stupidity is the problem.
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2009, 06:34:09 PM »
In fact, this was touted as a "global poll" but the nations listed are exclusively European -- except for the U.S. and Turkey.

And Japan.

Japan is an interesting case of an entire nation that was once virulently, stridently, and militantly devout in its pagan Shinto religious practices, but after the defeat of the Japanese Empire in World War II and the declaration by Hirohito that he was not a god, the nation briefly became open to Western religious views (especially but not exclusively Protestant Christianity) and then became overwhelmingly secular.

Something similar happened in Korea when the last Korean king was forced to abdicate by the Japanese government in 1910 and the incredible corruption of the Buddhist monasteries became obvious to the general Korean public -- along with the willingness of Buddhist monks to switch their allegience to the new Japanese government in return for financial support. Virtually all of the Korean fighters for the independence of Korea from Japan were either devout Christians or dedicated Communists, and because both groups were perfectly willing to die for their beliefs rather than bow to the Japanese emperor as a living god, the Korean struggle for independence from Japan ended up centering on those two communites which both rejected the traditional Buddhist religious practices of Korean Buddhist monks as compromisers with whatever government happened to be in power.
Darrell Todd Maurina
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Offline ex-ed

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2009, 06:45:53 PM »

hmm..  global poll = includes countries from around the globe. i never claimed it polled every country on the planet.  dont read to much into it. turkey is a rather safe islamic country to be going around polling people about evolution. you won't be arrested or murdered for being a heretic...
 
i believe my opinion on how it threatens america was quite clear. fundamentalists in this country are crusading against evolution and our population is blindly accepting the idea that evolution is not a fact just because christianity is argueing against it.  considering the multitude of fields of science that are reliant on the facts produced by an understanding of evolution, it's scary to consider the implications this line of thinking will have with future generations trying to compete with other countries in the fields of science..
 
yes, and the majority of the other free nations disagree with you. kind of similar to when we decided we should invade iraq. funny how that turned out eh?
 
the point is, only 4 out of 10 people in this country believe evolution to be a fact. when there is a substantial ammount of evidence that proves it to be. how can you not see the issue with that?  that's like 4 out of 10 people believing the sky to be blue and the rest of them think it is actually green. all you have to do is look up and you'll see its blue, but you refuse to. you would rather believe it is green.  that's ridiculous. and it all falls on the shoulders of the religious fundamentalist in this country. they are convincing people to disagree with a global consensus within in the scientific community that evolution is a fact with mountains of evidence to support it.
 
it's the most preposterous thing i've ever seen...
    I will comment on three of your comments, highlighted above:
    1. Don't worry; I won't read much into your panic and uproar over what people believe. I see no threat in what people believe about evolution.
    2. No, your explanation of why it was a threat was NOT clear -- and still isn't. Like Darrell, said. If this is such a threat, why is the U.S. still one of the top nations pouring forth scientific discoveries year after year?
    3. It may be the most preposterous things YOU have seen. I have seen much more preposterous things on this board -- such as the overpowering need to put down someone else's belief. Lots of people obviously feel very threatened when others can't see the logic of their arguments. That's what I find preposterous!
    BTW, I am  Christian AND I believe in evolution. Argue with me on that!
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2009, 06:47:28 PM »
It isn't fundamental christianity that is the problem, accepting and praising stupidity is the problem.

That's a pretty strong statement, What-The, coming from somebody who is committed to the scientific method and presumably believes there's no such thing as absolute truth.

There was a day that French scientists also ridiculed the possibility of rocks falling out of the sky and denied French peasants who said they had seen what were later determined to be meteors landing on the ground. And somewhere in my parents' house, there's an astronomy textbook from my mother's college astronomy class in the early 1950s saying what we now call galaxies beyond the Milky Way are just luminous gas clouds. Back then, telescopes weren't yet developed enough to show that what looked like luminous gas clouds were actually huge collections of stars in galaxies whose individual stars hadn't yet been able to be seen by the telescopes of the 1940s and early 1950s.

If you want to say that current scientific evidence causes you to believe evolution is the best explanation of human origins, I'll grant your point as a matter of consistency. But to rule out an explanation because it doesn't fit your evolutionary belief system and call it "stupid" is not consistent with a worldview that says truth should be based solely on empirical evidence.

Is it possible that you have your own dogmatic belief systems that you're applying regardless of the evidence, or perhaps more correctly, that you are taking several pieces of evidence to come to a conclusion you sincerely believe to be true, and then adamantly refusing to consider even the possibility that you might be wrong?

In other words, perhaps you have a faith in evolution and secularism that's just as strong as the faith evangelical Christians have in the Bible? If so, come out and be honest and admit you're making a faith-based commitment and are no longer willing to consider evidence that doesn't agree with your worldview.
Darrell Todd Maurina
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Offline What_The?

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2009, 06:52:52 PM »
That's a pretty strong statement, What-The, coming from somebody who is committed to the scientific method and presumably believes there's no such thing as absolute truth.

There was a day that French scientists also ridiculed the possibility of rocks falling out of the sky and denied French peasants who said they had seen what were later determined to be meteors landing on the ground. And somewhere in my parents' house, there's an astronomy textbook from my mother's college astronomy class in the early 1950s saying what we now call galaxies beyond the Milky Way are just luminous gas clouds. Back then, telescopes weren't yet developed enough to show that what looked like luminous gas clouds were actually huge collections of stars in galaxies whose individual stars hadn't yet been able to be seen by the telescopes of the 1940s and early 1950s.

If you want to say that current scientific evidence causes you to believe evolution is the best explanation of human origins, I'll grant your point as a matter of consistency. But to rule out an explanation because it doesn't fit your evolutionary belief system and call it "stupid" is not consistent with a worldview that says truth should be based solely on empirical evidence.

Is it possible that you have your own dogmatic belief systems that you're applying regardless of the evidence, or perhaps more correctly, that you are taking several pieces of evidence to come to a conclusion you sincerely believe to be true, and then adamantly refusing to consider even the possibility that you might be wrong?

In other words, perhaps you have a faith in evolution and secularism that's just as strong as the faith evangelical Christians have in the Bible? If so, come out and be honest and admit you're making a faith-based commitment and are no longer willing to consider evidence that doesn't agree with your worldview.

You presume too much in your attempts to dazzle everyone with verbal gymnastics and symantic juggling.

You know nothing about my belief system, how I apply it or what affect that has on my worldview or views about people.

Don't f**king put words in my mouth then trash me for the conclusions YOU draw about them.
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2009, 07:01:33 PM »
You presume too much in your attempts to dazzle everyone with verbal gymnastics and symantic juggling. You know nothing about my belief system, how I apply it or what affect that has on my worldview or views about people. Don't f**king put words in my mouth then trash me for the conclusions YOU draw about them.

I asked questions; I didn't draw conclusions about your beliefs. I know many, many, many people who believe strongly in evolution. In fact, that's probably most people I know outside Pulaski County, including evangelical Christians who would agree with me on virtually everything and agree with you on virtually nothing that you've said here.

I am very much aware that there are many different reasons for believing in evolution and my questions were trying to figure out what you believe and why.

If you want to respond to questions with swear words, that's your right -- though it might possibly say a little bit about your own openness to honest questioning and dialogue. Just don't call us "closed minded" if you respond to questions by cussing the questioner.
Darrell Todd Maurina
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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2009, 07:16:59 PM »
I asked questions; I didn't draw conclusions about your beliefs. I know many, many, many people who believe strongly in evolution. In fact, that's probably most people I know outside Pulaski County, including evangelical Christians who would agree with me on virtually everything and agree with you on virtually nothing that you've said here.

I am very much aware that there are many different reasons for believing in evolution and my questions were trying to figure out what you believe and why.

If you want to respond to questions with swear words, that's your right -- though it might possibly say a little bit about your own openness to honest questioning and dialogue. Just don't call us "closed minded" if you respond to questions by cussing the questioner.
But Darrell his screen name is an unfinished swear word isn't it?
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Offline freethinker

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2009, 07:47:18 PM »
wow.. take a shower and miss a bunch....
 
DTM - you drew your own conclusions about my post. I was not implying that belief in christianity hampered us in leading the world in technology. You assumed that was the line I was taking. I said nothing more then christian fundamentalists are pulling the wool over the eyes of more then half the adults in this country when it comes to accepting the data that proves evolution is a fact.  Luckily, forty percent of our population believing in evolution is still more people then most of the other countries listed on that poll.  But why must we limit ourselves to such a small number believing evidence that is clear as day to anyone willing to look at it?
 
Look at it this way. The religious fundamentalist have made a political crusade against a proven and verifiable scientific field of study and have convinced more then half of the people in this country to denounce it. If we allow them to continue with this, what other scientific knowledge will they decide to turn against and try to push out of our schools because it "potentially" contradicts their beliefs? How can we expect to come to a consensus on matters of moral or ethical ideology when we can't agree on science? I intended to make connections between gay rights and abortion and what not, but forgot where I was going with this...
 
And yes, the knowledge gained by the study of evolution will have a large role in determining future technological advances. Molecular and Biological engineering is the biggest thing that comes to mind, considering the vastly growing population of this planet and the already desperate struggle to feed them all. But that's just one example. There are countless things to be learned and applied to other fields of science by studying biological evolution.   
 
Denmark, Sweden and France are indeed among the top 15 leaders when it comes to scientific studies. Again, I made no mention of technological or economic leaders..  The size of our population almost gaurantees we stay ahead of most countries. Though China and Japan are likely to surpass us within the next few years.
 
I suppose I didn't quite make myself clear in my original post and I apologize. I spaced a bit and didn't clarify my full meaning before i posted it. ADHD is a b*tch :)
 
 
ex-ed. I was not attacking beliefs. I was attacking practices. I've said this before: I have nothing against people being religious. But crusading against the findings of a global community of scientists - for whatever reason they have - is unacceptable when the facts are there for anyone to see.  I have never insisted that a belief in evolution implies you can not have belief in god. In fact, I have said that studying evolution might strengthen one's belief in god by giving you a better understanding of why things are the way they are. People here can't seem to get past the fact that I'm an atheist... everything I say is not an attack on god. Sure, I poke some fun here and there, but mostly directly at a particular person for the silly things they have said. I could care less if you believe in god. But I won't stand idly by whilst people try to spread lies and misinformation concerning scientific data.
 
 
 
 
 

Offline kari

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2009, 01:11:07 AM »
#1... this Country was founded on Judaeo/Christian beliefs, not Christian beliefs.  Had it been founded strictly on Christian beliefs, we would not be such a diverse Country.  Christianity believes in proselytizing, our Government does not promote any religion, it is NOT founded on strictly Christian beliefs.  Judaism does not believe in proselytizing, as we feel there are many doors to the house of G_D.  Most of us, Jews, also believe that others do not have to have a belief in a G_D, as long as one lives a righteous life.

#2... I just watched "Jesus Camp" and the only difference I see in that and radical Islam, is radical Islam is openly promoting violence.  Christianity, unfortunately, has had a history of violence in the past, so the step back to that in what some are pushing within their children, is not far away.  They want their children to turn this Country into a fundamentialist Christian Country.... following only what THEY believe..this means all Catholics, Jews, Muslims, moderate Christians, etc., would HAVE to follow the fundamentialist way of religion.  They want their children to "fight", even die for their belief in the way they feel Christianity should be.
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Offline fish

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2009, 02:09:15 AM »
judaeo AND christian beliefs

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2009, 04:30:34 AM »
I wish you so-called hardcore Christians would just come put and admit what their religion is really about... I might respect the whole thing a little more if you would just stop lying about it.

Its about assimilation...  You want to assimilate other religions and make the world see things YOUR way.

If you argue with me... your a failure as a Christiain, and no I won't prove it with verses.  If you really read your Bible as much as a good Christiain is supposed to, you would already know this.

Only a TRUE Christian would have the courage to come out and admit that they are trying to take over the world.  Everyone else who tries to preach "tolerance" should just stop kidding theirselves and reevaluate their lives because your living a LIE.

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2009, 04:58:02 AM »
I wish you so-called hardcore Christians would just come put and admit what their religion is really about... I might respect the whole thing a little more if you would just stop lying about it.

Its about assimilation...  You want to assimilate other religions and make the world see things YOUR way.

If you argue with me... your a failure as a Christiain, and no I won't prove it with verses.  If you really read your Bible as much as a good Christiain is supposed to, you would already know this.

Only a TRUE Christian would have the courage to come out and admit that they are trying to take over the world.  Everyone else who tries to preach "tolerance" should just stop kidding theirselves and reevaluate their lives because your living a LIE.
DN my friend can I just take over just half the world.
I'm to old to do the whole world thing.
hope you don't mind if I just take half.
You can have the other half as long as i get Florida and Missouri.
We can cast lots for the rest of it Okay :wink1a:   ;D :th_gen129:
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Offline kari

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2009, 05:04:08 AM »
I wish you so-called hardcore Christians would just come put and admit what their religion is really about... I might respect the whole thing a little more if you would just stop lying about it.

Its about assimilation...  You want to assimilate other religions and make the world see things YOUR way.

If you argue with me... your a failure as a Christiain, and no I won't prove it with verses.  If you really read your Bible as much as a good Christiain is supposed to, you would already know this.

Only a TRUE Christian would have the courage to come out and admit that they are trying to take over the world.  Everyone else who tries to preach "tolerance" should just stop kidding theirselves and reevaluate their lives because your living a LIE.

You say it a bit harsh, but in essence you are right.  Christianity practices proselytizing.  There's a belief among some Christian sects that proselytizing will bring about the Messiah.
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Offline mark

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2009, 10:49:32 AM »
That's a pretty strong statement, What-The, coming from somebody who is committed to the scientific method and presumably believes there's no such thing as absolute truth.

There was a day that French scientists also ridiculed the possibility of rocks falling out of the sky and denied French peasants who said they had seen what were later determined to be meteors landing on the ground. And somewhere in my parents' house, there's an astronomy textbook from my mother's college astronomy class in the early 1950s saying what we now call galaxies beyond the Milky Way are just luminous gas clouds. Back then, telescopes weren't yet developed enough to show that what looked like luminous gas clouds were actually huge collections of stars in galaxies whose individual stars hadn't yet been able to be seen by the telescopes of the 1940s and early 1950s.

If you want to say that current scientific evidence causes you to believe evolution is the best explanation of human origins, I'll grant your point as a matter of consistency. But to rule out an explanation because it doesn't fit your evolutionary belief system and call it "stupid" is not consistent with a worldview that says truth should be based solely on empirical evidence.

Is it possible that you have your own dogmatic belief systems that you're applying regardless of the evidence, or perhaps more correctly, that you are taking several pieces of evidence to come to a conclusion you sincerely believe to be true, and then adamantly refusing to consider even the possibility that you might be wrong?

In other words, perhaps you have a faith in evolution and secularism that's just as strong as the faith evangelical Christians have in the Bible? If so, come out and be honest and admit you're making a faith-based commitment and are no longer willing to consider evidence that doesn't agree with your worldview.
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Offline fish

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2009, 01:47:38 PM »
you crack me up dn! LOL LOL you think God wants us to be doormats to people like you? pointing out differences of opinion(or fact) is not arguing. christians aren't trying to take over the world. they are trying to prepare folks for Jesus' return by spreading the word of God. if you read your bible you would know that,and a little more!

Offline igahmah at work

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2009, 03:18:27 PM »
"Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation."  Mark 16:15

This is not a command to make all people Christians this is a command to tell people about Jesus Christ.  As evidenced by this board, not all will believe and we are not in the business of "making" you believe. 
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Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2009, 04:21:37 PM »
I wish you so-called hardcore Christians would just come put and admit what their religion is really about... I might respect the whole thing a little more if you would just stop lying about it. Its about assimilation...  You want to assimilate other religions and make the world see things YOUR way. If you argue with me... your a failure as a Christiain, and no I won't prove it with verses.  If you really read your Bible as much as a good Christiain is supposed to, you would already know this. Only a TRUE Christian would have the courage to come out and admit that they are trying to take over the world.  Everyone else who tries to preach "tolerance" should just stop kidding theirselves and reevaluate their lives because your living a LIE.

Hmm. I don't know many evangelical Christians who deny that we want other people to become Christians. Isn't it pretty obvious that if you're an evangelical Christian, you're going to evangelize? I don't see anybody "lying" here about their desire to see people converted and believe in Jesus Christ.

Now talking about "taking over the world" is a whole different ballgame. No Christian who understands their Bible believes we can do that on our own -- the question is how Christians read the book of Revelation and several prophetic books of the Old Testament and how we believe G-d (not us) will take control of the world, and when He will do it.

Some of us (basically post-millenialists) believe there will come a day when G-d will convert most of the world and the world will be predominantly Christian. Others (basically amillenial and pre-millenial people) believe things will get much, much worse and unbelievers will take over the world and virtually destroy the church before the final return of Christ.

Either way, because conversion is a one-to-one relationship between G-d and a repentant sinner, the use of violence and force in preaching the Gospel is not helpful. Yes, I know there have been exceptions, but most of Christian history has focused on trying to convince people that Christianity is right, not trying to force conversions at swordpoint, for the simple reason that forced conversions aren't real conversions at all. If I force you to confess the name of Christ with your lips while you hate Him in your heart, all I've done is drive you farther away from a real relationship with Christ.

Digital, you've surely lived long enough in the Bible Belt to know that most evangelicals today are premillenial, and not only do **NOT** believe in taking over the world, but actually believe people like you, Freethinker, Preacher and What-The will rule the world for a period of time and persecute the church no matter how hard we try to present the Gospel to you. We just would rather have you come over and join the side that will win in the end, not the side that is winning in the short-term.
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Offline freethinker

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2009, 04:36:05 PM »
There was a day that French scientists also ridiculed the possibility of rocks falling out of the sky and denied French peasants who said they had seen what were later determined to be meteors landing on the ground. And somewhere in my parents' house, there's an astronomy textbook from my mother's college astronomy class in the early 1950s saying what we now call galaxies beyond the Milky Way are just luminous gas clouds. Back then, telescopes weren't yet developed enough to show that what looked like luminous gas clouds were actually huge collections of stars in galaxies whose individual stars hadn't yet been able to be seen by the telescopes of the 1940s and early 1950s.

Are you implying that it is "stupid" to believe anything that comes from the scientific community? Simply because some explanations have been proven incorrect once better technology comes along?  It sure reads that way. I'll admit that it could be a true statement depending on the field of study. But more often then not, continued research confirms old ideas and reveals new things that no one has yet to think of. Which is very true about Darwins theory. We're talking about an idea that is 150 years old. This theory was basically floating around with no proof to back it up for years, and then we learned more about genetics. Then DNA was discovered. The field of Biology was completely transformed because of those two achievements. And we have been learning more about these sort of things ever since. And what does all this new technology do for evolution, a century and a half later? It confirms it, over and over and over. Now, how evolution occurs exactly is still a subject scientists are working to solve. But the fact that evolution happens [especially microevolution] is constantly being re-affirmed with every new technological breakthrough in the field. Darwin was right. The only one's who wish to debate this fact are those who hold a fundamentally religious view of the world and how it was created.
 
Now let's compare that to the christian fundamentalist view of man, animals, and history. Their explanation for how the animals and man came to be as they are today is over two-thousand years old. That is quite a bit longer then it took for those astronomer's to realize they had it wrong. How can you reference scientific research from sixty years ago to prove a point, and not understand why others look at christianity the way they do? Over the past two-thousand years, no evidence has been produced to validate the claims made in the bible. And I'm not speaking about scientific evidence. It is impossible to prove or disprove the existance of god through science, or at all short of god showing up and leaving no doubt. Where is the historical evidence that affirms the account of what took place in the old testament? How about the historical evidence that shows that Jesus actually existed and performed all the miracles he is credited with in the new testament? We have historical evidence that shows Socrates and Aristotle were living people and verifies the accounts of their lives. They both lived over three hundred years before Jesus came along. These two were mere philosophers, not the Son of God Messiah walking the earth and dieing for mankind's sins. If we have historical accounts of those two, why is the story of Jesus told only in the christian bible?  Where is the evidence that supports this amazing and most important story in our history?     
Then we can take into account all of the other practices and beliefs held by the christian churches in the past that have long been proven false by science, and it gets to be real easy to see why those wish to believe evolution over creationism. The evidence is available for those wish to study it. To have faith in the bible you must take the words without any proof other then a community of like-minded people and a "good feeling" you get when surrounded by people who share the same ideas.
 
Evolution is not a belief system. You do not have to rely on faith to believe in evolution.

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2009, 06:01:04 PM »
Are you implying that it is "stupid" to believe anything that comes from the scientific community? Simply because some explanations have been proven incorrect once better technology comes along?

Not at all, and thank you for asking. I am sorry I was not clear on what I meant.

My point was that those who are committed to the scientific method have to always be open to the possibility of new evidence, and calling people who oppose evolution "stupid" makes as much sense as French scientists calling people stupid for saying rocks fell out of the sky because "we all know" that can't happen.

Absolute certainty about anything is not compatible with the scientific method. You can't say you're 100 percent certain of the truth of evolution and any other view is "stupid," because you always have to allow for the possibility that some new evidence would come along to explain things differently.

Evolution is not a belief system. You do not have to rely on faith to believe in evolution.

That's not exactly what I'm saying. You don't have to rely on faith to believe in evolution, but you do have to rely on faith to believe that nothing is true unless it has been "proven" by the scientific method. The nuance of difference is important.

If you want to say, "I believe evolution is the best explanation of human origins based on the evidence we have today," that's legitimate. What you appear to actually be saying is a statement about the authority of science that is just as dogmatic as anything said by a fundamentalist, and is actually claiming an authority for science that most scientists won't claim because they know major theories are from time to time changed based on new evidence.

If you're going to be a dogmatic supporter of evolution, then you need to admit that you, for whatever reason, have a faith in evolution that goes beyond probability into the realm of certainty, and that means you have some prior commitments that likely have little to do with the evidence.
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Offline freethinker

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2009, 06:46:17 PM »
The "authority" I bestow to science is merely in opposition to religious [faith based] interpretations of the world taught in our public school systems. That is the real root of this arguement that has spanned several different threads. I am not asking science to explain everything to me. I am well aware of the fact I will go to my grave still wondering how and why countless things are the way they are.  There are very few things I am "certain" about.  I am not egotistical enough to make such claims.
 
I sont believe I am being dogmatic about evolution. I stated in that exact same post you quoted from that new evidence can change the way scientist's explain things. I'm no stranger to certain theories being changed due to new evidence. But, such as Newton's explanation of how gravity works being replaced by Einstien's, the fact that gravity exists doesn't go away. Just the understanding of how gravity works has been tinkered with. The same idea rings true about all scientific theories.  The "how" can change several times over when considering new evidence. But while the explanation has been adjusted to fit the new evidence, the theory itself remains a fact. This is true of evolution as well.
 
I might admit to being dogmatically opposed to the teaching of creationism in our school system. But this is not because of my firm belief in evolution. It is my firm belief in the seperation of church and state, and our countries freedom of/from religion. People here like to draw conclusions based on my atheism and my argueing against teaching creationism. I have done nothing more on here then try to correct the misinformation being spread by certain persons who wish to propagate creation in favor of evolution in the school system. Those here that see me as this crazy evolution fanatic are simply making unwarranted connections between my trust in science and the fact that I am an atheist. There are more then a few points concerning macroevolution that I'm not quite sure about. But the evidence explaining microevolution seems to me to be pretty dead on.

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2009, 11:11:02 PM »
No Darrell, Christians do not force people into their faith at sword-point anymore...

They now try and do it with a pen.  They throw fits and blackmail officials to put things up like ten commandment statues and pass laws allowing CHRISTIAN prayer in our schools.  They try to get laws passed that ban basic human rights.  They stiffle science and exploration (the whole point of this thread).  They are a blight on the human race.

Just think of where we might be technologically today if we hadn't had to suffer through the dark ages...  just think of all the things we might have if this blight didn't continue to try and force its ideas on the world by fighting to pass laws and regulations against new discoveries.

Its not even about God and going to heaven anymore... its about power and control... and the arrogant idea that they are right above all others and because they're right everyone should have to live like they do.

Well Darrell, I refuse to live like they do.  Science isn't a threat to my control over the masses like it is for Christianity... its a way for humanity to better itself.

Thats why something as simple as evolution is looked down upon publically by the church.  It is a threat to their prescribed understanding of our existence... they risk being quite wrong if something like that were to be accepted as fact... they cannot have that now can they?  I'm sure it would effect their donations after all... thus keeping them from taking that extra vacation or buying that new Cadillac this year...

You cannot paint Christianity with witty descriptions and make it look any better to me.  I know what it really is and what its really about.

It doesn't take a genious to step back and realize how it works.



Hmm. I don't know many evangelical Christians who deny that we want other people to become Christians. Isn't it pretty obvious that if you're an evangelical Christian, you're going to evangelize? I don't see anybody "lying" here about their desire to see people converted and believe in Jesus Christ.

Now talking about "taking over the world" is a whole different ballgame. No Christian who understands their Bible believes we can do that on our own -- the question is how Christians read the book of Revelation and several prophetic books of the Old Testament and how we believe G-d (not us) will take control of the world, and when He will do it.

Some of us (basically post-millenialists) believe there will come a day when G-d will convert most of the world and the world will be predominantly Christian. Others (basically amillenial and pre-millenial people) believe things will get much, much worse and unbelievers will take over the world and virtually destroy the church before the final return of Christ.

Either way, because conversion is a one-to-one relationship between G-d and a repentant sinner, the use of violence and force in preaching the Gospel is not helpful. Yes, I know there have been exceptions, but most of Christian history has focused on trying to convince people that Christianity is right, not trying to force conversions at swordpoint, for the simple reason that forced conversions aren't real conversions at all. If I force you to confess the name of Christ with your lips while you hate Him in your heart, all I've done is drive you farther away from a real relationship with Christ.

Digital, you've surely lived long enough in the Bible Belt to know that most evangelicals today are premillenial, and not only do **NOT** believe in taking over the world, but actually believe people like you, Freethinker, Preacher and What-The will rule the world for a period of time and persecute the church no matter how hard we try to present the Gospel to you. We just would rather have you come over and join the side that will win in the end, not the side that is winning in the short-term.

Offline ♥♣ ~Maynard~♣♥

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2009, 11:23:01 PM »
DN have I ever tried to force my beliefs on you?
I don't think I have and i'm sorry if you ever thought i have.
If I ever do You can slap me in the head twice...... you know the turn the other cheek think......... but please don't try for a third smack........ thats where the eye for an eye kicks in ;D
Just kidding buuuuuddddyyy
You have a nice day and keep giving us hell we need it some times to humble us Bible thumpers :th_gen129:
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Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: Why fundamentalist christians are a threat to America.
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2009, 03:23:12 AM »
Unfortunately you do not represent the majority of your faith.

Its usually the holier than thou types who abuse their religions and try to make a million excuses to excuse their behavior.

Its just a carry over from psychology and their personalities...  Its a sort of ammunition against the rest of the world.


DN have I ever tried to force my beliefs on you?
I don't think I have and i'm sorry if you ever thought i have.
If I ever do You can slap me in the head twice...... you know the turn the other cheek think......... but please don't try for a third smack........ thats where the eye for an eye kicks in ;D
Just kidding buuuuuddddyyy
You have a nice day and keep giving us hell we need it some times to humble us Bible thumpers :th_gen129: