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Author Topic: THE FLOOD  (Read 11943 times)

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Offline mark

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THE FLOOD
« on: March 23, 2009, 03:12:03 PM »

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Rock Layers Folded, Not Fractured                                              Flood Evidence Number Six             by Andrew A. Snelling                          March 15, 2009                                  Semi-technical                                          Keywords                                                                                                                        Featured In                This Issue                                                                                           How could a series of sedimentary layers fold without fracturing? The only way is for all the sedimentary layers to be laid down in rapid succession and then be folded while still soft and pliable.
If the global Flood, as described in Genesis 7–8, really occurred, what evidence would we expect to find? Wouldn’t we expect to find rock layers all over the earth that are filled with billions of dead animals and plants that were rapidly buried and fossilized in sand, mud, and lime? Yes, and that’s exactly what we find.           Six main geologic evidences for the Genesis Flood      Evidence #1. Fossils of sea creatures high above sea level
Evidence #2. Rapid burial of plants and animals
Evidence #3. Rapidly deposited sediment layers spread across vast areas
Evidence #4. Sediment transported long distances
Evidence #5. Rapid or no erosion between strata
Evidence #6. Many strata laid down in rapid succession        This article concludes a series on the six main geologic evidences that testify to the Genesis Flood.
The fossil-bearing geologic record consists of tens of thousands of feet of sedimentary layers, though not all these layers are found everywhere around the globe, and their thickness varies from place to place. At most locations only a small portion is available to view, such as about 4,500 feet (1371 m) of strata in the walls of the Grand Canyon.
Uniformitarian (long-age) geologists believe that these sedimentary layers were deposited and deformed over the past 500 million years. If it really did take millions of years, then individual sediment layers would have been deposited slowly and the sequences would have been laid down sporadically. In contrast, if the global cataclysmic Genesis Flood deposited all these strata in a little more than a year, then the individual layers would have been deposited in rapid succession, one on top of the other.
Do we see evidence in the walls of the Grand Canyon that the sedimentary layers were all laid down in quick succession? Yes, absolutely!
The previous article in this series documented the lack of evidence for slow and gradual erosion at the boundaries between the sediment layers. This article explores evidence that the entire sequence of sedimentary strata was still soft during subsequent folding, and the strata experienced only limited fracturing. These rock layers should have broken and shattered during the folding, unless the sediment was still relatively soft and pliable.      Solid Rock Breaks When Bent           Solid Rock Breaks not Bends (Figure 1)  When solid, hard rock is bent (or folded) it invariably fractures and breaks because it is brittle.      
Click to enlarge
When solid, hard rock is bent (or folded) it invariably fractures and breaks because it is brittle. Rock will bend only if it is still soft and pliable, like modeling clay. If clay is allowed to dry out, it is no longer pliable but hard and brittle, so any attempt to bend it will cause it to break and shatter.        When solid, hard rock is bent (or folded) it invariably fractures and breaks because it is brittle (Figure 1).1 Rock will bend only if it is still soft and pliable—“plastic” like modeling clay or children’s Playdough. If such modeling clay is allowed to dry out, it is no longer pliable but hard and brittle, so any attempt to bend it will cause it to break and shatter.
When water deposits sediments in a layer, some water is left behind, trapped between the sediment grains. Clay particles may also be among the sediment grains. As other sedimentary layers are laid on top of the deposits, the pressure squeezes the sedimentary particles closer together and forces out much of the water. The earth’s internal heat may also remove water from the sediment. As the sediment layer dries out, the chemicals that were in the water and between the clay particles convert into a natural cement. This cement transforms the originally soft and wet sediment layer into a hard, brittle rock layer.
This process, known technically as diagenesis, can be exceedingly rapid.2 It is known to occur within hours but generally takes days or months, depending on the prevailing conditions. It doesn’t take millions of years, even under today’s slow-and-gradual geologic conditions.      Folding a Whole Strata Sequence Without Fracturing           Examples of Bent Rock Layers (Figures 2–4)  The boundary between the Kaibab Plateau and the less uplifted eastern canyons is marked by a large step-like fold, called the East Kaibab Monocline     
Click to enlarge
Figure 2. The boundary between the Kaibab Plateau and the less uplifted eastern canyons is marked by a large step-like fold, called the East Kaibab Monocline (above).  Carbon Canyon Kwagunt Creek      
Click to enlarge
Figure 3 and 4. It is possible to see these folded sedimentary layers in several side canyons. All these layers had to be soft and pliable at the same time in order for these layers to be folded without fracturing. The folded Tapeats Sandstone can be seen in Carbon Canyon (top) and the folded Mauv and Redwall Limestone layers can be seen along Kwagunt Creek (bottom).
    
Photos courtesy of Dr. Snelling
         The 4,500-foot sequence of sedimentary layers in the walls of the Grand Canyon stands well above today’s sea level. Earth movements in the past pushed up this sedimentary sequence to form the Kaibab Plateau. However, the eastern portion of the sequence (in the eastern Grand Canyon and Marble Canyon areas in northern Arizona) was not pushed up as much and is about 2,500 feet (762 m) lower than the height of the Kaibab Plateau. The boundary between the Kaibab Plateau and the less uplifted eastern canyons is marked by a large step-like fold, called the East Kaibab Monocline (Figure 2).
It’s possible to see these folded sedimentary layers in several side canyons. For example, the folded Tapeats Sandstone can be seen in Carbon Canyon (Figure 3). Notice that these sandstone layers were bent 90° (a right angle), yet the rock was not fractured or broken at the hinge of the fold. Similarly, the folded Muav and Redwall Limestone layers can be seen along nearby Kwagunt Creek (Figure 4). The folding of these limestones did not cause them to fracture and break, either, as would be expected with ancient brittle rocks. The obvious conclusion is that these sandstone and limestone layers were all folded and bent while the sediments were still soft and pliable, very soon after they were deposited.
Herein lies an insurmountable dilemma for uniformitarian geologists. They maintain that the Tapeats Sandstone and Muav Limestone were deposited 500–520 million years ago3; the Redwall Limestone, 330–340 million years ago4; then the Kaibab Limestone at the top of the sequence (Figure 2), 260 million years ago.5 Lastly, the Kaibab Plateau was uplifted (about 60 million years ago), causing the folding.6 That’s a time span of about 440 million years between the first deposit and the folding. How could the Tapeats Sandstone and Muav Limestone still be soft and pliable, as though they had just been deposited? Wouldn’t they fracture and shatter if folded 440 million years after deposition?
The conventional explanation is that under the pressure and heat of burial, the hardened sandstone and limestone layers were bent so slowly they behaved as though they were plastic and thus did not break.7 However, pressure and heat would have caused detectable changes in the minerals of these rocks, tell-tale signs of metamorphism.8 But such metamorphic minerals or recrystallization due to such plastic behavior9 is not observed in these rocks. The sandstone and limestone in the folds are identical to sedimentary layers elsewhere.
The only logical conclusion is that the 440-million-year delay between deposition and folding never happened! Instead, the Tapeats-Kaibab strata sequence was laid down in rapid succession early during the year of the global cataclysmic Genesis Flood, followed by uplift of the Kaibab Plateau within the last months of the Flood. This alone explains the folding of the whole strata sequence without appreciable fracturing.      Conclusion      Uniformitarian geologists claim that tens of thousands of feet of fossiliferous sedimentary layers have been deposited over more than 500 million years. In contrast, the global cataclysmic Flood of Genesis 7–8 leads creation geologists to believe that most of these layers were deposited in just over one year. Thus, during the Flood many different strata would have been laid down in rapid succession.
In the walls of the Grand Canyon, we can see that the whole horizontal sedimentary strata sequence was folded without fracturing, supposedly 440 million years after the Tapeats Sandstone and Muav Limestone were deposited, and 200 million years after the Kaibab Limestone was deposited. The only way to explain how these sandstone and limestone beds could be folded, as though still pliable, is to conclude they were deposited during the Genesis Flood, just months before they were folded.      There is only one explanation for the folded rock layers in Grand Canyon—Noah’s Flood. Uniformitarian explanations cannot adequately explain these features.      In this special geology series we have documented that, when we accept the Flood of Genesis 7–8 as an actual event in earth history, then we find that the geologic evidence is absolutely in harmony with the Word of God. As the ocean waters flooded over the continents, they must have buried plants and animals in rapid succession. These rapidly deposited sediment layers were spread across vast areas, preserving fossils of sea creatures in layers that are high above the current (receded) sea level. The sand and other sediments in these layers were transported long distances from their original sources. We know that many of these sedimentary strata were laid down in rapid succession because we don’t find evidence of slow erosion between the strata.
As expected, the evidence in God’s world totally agrees with what we read in God’s Word. “Thy word is true from the beginning,” the psalmist tells us (Psalm 119:160).
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline What_The?

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2009, 03:25:40 PM »
You don't get to use science.

"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline fish

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2009, 03:59:06 PM »
why not? because it proves God exists?

Offline What_The?

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2009, 04:28:44 PM »
why not? because it proves God exists?

Because you think it proves religion, that is why.

Science does not prove religion.  It doesn't have the capacity to.

Religion does not prove science.  It doesn't have the capacity to.

ANY "god" can make 2+2= infinity.

Science cannot.
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline shadylane

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2009, 06:44:23 AM »
Lets start with Evidence #1 Fossils of sea creature high above sea level" Does this prove the great biblical flood if so then why aren't any modern mammals found along side them? 

I can't wait for you to try and use the "evidence" from this author. That a mile of molten rock on all the ocean floors caused the water to raise up a mile on top of it. And cover the land.
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline mark

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2009, 11:59:06 AM »
Lets start with Evidence #1 Fossils of sea creature high above sea level" Does this prove the great biblical flood if so then why aren't any modern mammals found along side them? 

I can't wait for you to try and use the "evidence" from this author. That a mile of molten rock on all the ocean floors caused the water to raise up a mile on top of it. And cover the land.
Most of the sea creatures found were buried alive. They did not slowly die and over billions of years get covered with sediment on the ocean floor. Then have continents collide and slowly grind their way to the top and some how survive (as a fossil) millions of years of earthquakes,erosion, ice ages, and glaciers. Mammals had legs!
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Offline shadylane

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2009, 01:10:07 PM »
 Did you read all of link you posted. he had two theories.
 
1. Water sprung from the earth and flooded the world. OK maybe God willed it. But all we have now is ground water and the oceans have a lot more volume than that.
2. The reason the oceans rose was because of lava suddenly covering the sea floor to a depth of 1 mile. Did it never strike you as being odd that this didn't vaporize the water above it?
 
3. Sadly he never mentioned it just raining for 40 days and nights. Like the bible said.
 
4. There for, you have just helped to promote a theory that refutes the biblical story of the great flood.
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline mark

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2009, 01:21:44 PM »
 The flood was a MAJOR catastrophe. I think when the "fountains of the deep" broke open there were major earthquakes, rapid continental drift, lava flows, CO2 everywhere. The entire earth was heaving and changing. Except for a large boat (with God on board) everything died. And no I don't think one mile of lava would evaporate several miles of water.
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Offline kari

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2009, 01:31:31 PM »
The flood was a MAJOR catastrophe. I think when the "fountains of the deep" broke open there were major earthquakes, rapid continental drift, lava flows, CO2 everywhere. The entire earth was heaving and changing. Except for a large boat (with God on board) everything died. And no I don't think one mile of lava would evaporate several miles of water.
If, G_D was on board..... why did Noah have to send forth a bird to look for dry land?  Where does it state in the story of Noah that there were earthquakes, rapid continental drift, lava flows, CO2?  Amazing how you can add words that aren't there, or change the actual words (which WERE NOT in English), to suit how you want.
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Offline mark

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2009, 01:36:31 PM »
 If the grounds a breakin open, and the EARTHS a floodin, I'm just a guessin their was a little rumblin!
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
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Offline shadylane

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2009, 01:37:46 PM »
 I'd hate to be in a flat bottomed ark, while all these calamities were going on. With no means of control or propulsion. It would be very difficult I'm sure. Bet the atmosphere wasn't very life sustaining either. It didn't take but a tiny asteroid to kill most of the Life on earth. I'd hate to have been in a boat when the "major earthquakes, rapid continental drift, lava flows and CO2 everywhere. The entire earth was heaving and changing".
But I'm really impressed with earths ability to supply live sustaining food and air emediantly after such a colaminity
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline shadylane

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2009, 01:49:37 PM »
""And no I don't think one mile of lava would evaporate several miles of water.""
It may not but I'd hate to be in a boat crammed full of critters, food and people. While being slow cooked by a hot ocean.
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline kari

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2009, 01:56:43 PM »
""And no I don't think one mile of lava would evaporate several miles of water.""
It may not but I'd hate to be in a boat crammed full of critters, food and people. While being slow cooked by a hot ocean.
Can you imagine the over-powering smell of ammonia, the methane on board.... wow, don't remember anything being written concerning ventilation systems.  Even the food supply would be a danger, molds developing, gases forming.... just a tiny spark and BOOM!  Did all the animals go without eating, drinking, and normal bodily functions? 
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Offline shadylane

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2009, 01:58:05 PM »
Noah was the son of Lamech, who named him Noah (Hebrew "rest") because he would bring rest from toil on the land which God had cursed (a reference to the curse God places on the earth following the expulsion from Eden). In his five hundredth year Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. When Noah was six hundred years old, God, saddened at the wickedness of mankind, decided to send a great deluge to destroy all life. But he saw that Noah was a righteous man, and instructed him to build an ark and gather himself and his family with every type of animal, male and female.[3][4] And so the Flood came, and all life was extinguished, except for those who were with Noah, "and the waters prevailed upon the earth for one-hundred and fifty days"[5] until the Ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. There Noah built an altar to God (the first altar mentioned in the Bible) and made an offering. "And when the Lord smelled the pleasing odour, the Lord said in his heart, 'I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done. While the earth remains, seed-time and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease'."[6]
 
The word deluge was used. Then the promise was made to never do such a thing again, does this mean there will never be an end time
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline mark

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2009, 02:00:52 PM »
 The evidence is everywhere you look. Mountain's pushed up valleys sank down all the little creatures were rapidly buried. Go stand on the rubidoux bridge on Hwy. 17 and look up at the curved bluff that was formed during the flood. The ark may have been somewhat uncomfortable, but it beats the heck out of the alternative!
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
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Offline kari

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2009, 02:21:08 PM »
The ark may have been somewhat uncomfortable, but it beats the heck out of the alternative!
Somewhat uncomfortable?  How long do you think creatures can survive after only 5 days of all of them urinating and defecating with no ventilation?  Gases build up rather fast..... 
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Offline shadylane

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2009, 02:56:44 PM »
The evidence is everywhere you look. Mountain's pushed up valleys sank down all the little creatures were rapidly buried. Go stand on the rubidoux bridge on Hwy. 17 and look up at the curved bluff that was formed during the flood. The ark may have been somewhat uncomfortable, but it beats the heck out of the alternative!

Maybe the little sea creatures were slowly buried over the eons and the mountains were pushed up later by plate tectonics. Wasn't the flood sopposed to be caused by 40 days of rain? If you want to believe in the bible don't be led astray by a false scientist such as Andrew A. Snelling. His theory doesn't agree with the biblical story.                         
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline mark

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2009, 10:53:26 AM »
Can you imagine the over-powering smell of ammonia, the methane on board.... wow, don't remember anything being written concerning ventilation systems.  Even the food supply would be a danger, molds developing, gases forming.... just a tiny spark and BOOM!  Did all the animals go without eating, drinking, and normal bodily functions? 
Kari, you say this often. That something has been omitted or left out of the Bible. (as if that makes it untrue) You can't possibly have every detail , the Bible would be a mile thick. It should be obvious that when God designed the Ark he planned for food bins and poo disposal.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline ex-ed

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2009, 01:48:41 PM »
... That something has been omitted or left out of the Bible. (as if that makes it untrue) You can't possibly have every detail , the Bible would be a mile thick. ...

    Gee, if the Bible "can't possibly have every detail," then the Genesis account of creation may NOT be literally true, eh? Maybe G-d left something out about how long He considers "a day," or maybe He left out the part about accomplishing creation of the heavens and earth by setting a process (such as evolution) in motion and allowing it to work to completion ....
Golly gosh, maybe He didn't explain other details too, such as His use plate tectonics to build mountains ...
    Mark, you argue for a literal, word-for-word application of the Bible, yet you find that you have to add something or make something up (a theory???) to explain the blank spaces. Doesn't that tell you that other people may have come up with legitimate theories to fill in those spaces too?
    It ain't about whether or not the Bible is literally true or not. It's about each of us building a relationship with the Creator of the Universe. It's about Him, not His creation.
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2009, 01:53:03 PM »

    Gee, if the Bible "can't possibly have every detail," then the Genesis account of creation may NOT be literally true, eh? Maybe G-d left something out about how long He considers "a day," or maybe He left out the part about accomplishing creation of the heavens and earth by setting a process (such as evolution) in motion and allowing it to work to completion ....
Golly gosh, maybe He didn't explain other details too, such as His use plate tectonics to build mountains ...
    Mark, you argue for a literal, word-for-word application of the Bible, yet you find that you have to add something or make something up (a theory???) to explain the blank spaces. Doesn't that tell you that other people may have come up with legitimate theories to fill in those spaces too?
    It ain't about whether or not the Bible is literally true or not. It's about each of us building a relationship with the Creator of the Universe. It's about Him, not His creation.
Don't know what I'm "making up" Its pretty obvious that animals eat and shit!
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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2009, 03:08:17 PM »
Don't know what I'm "making up" Its pretty obvious that animals eat and shit!
Deuteronomy 23:13-14 gives the rule/law for excrement..... Seems rather strange that such a thing would be "left out" in respect to housing humans, and soooooooooo many animals.  What about ventilation?  Doesn't the Bible give the "exact" way the ark should be built?  I didn't see any details for ventilation, removal of waste products, how to feed all the critters (especially by so few humans), etc. 

Ex-Ed, is right once again!  If you are going to take the Bible literally, you must take all of it literally, not pick and chose.
Proud to have served, US Army, WAC

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2009, 05:33:18 PM »
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Caring for the Animals on the Ark
by John Woodmorappe
March 29, 2007
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According to Scripture, Noah’s Ark was a safe haven for representatives of all the kinds of air-breathing land animals that God created. While it is possible that God made miraculous provisions for the daily care of these animals, it is not necessary—or required by Scripture—to appeal to miracles. Exploring natural solutions for day-to-day operations does not discount God’s role: the biblical account hints at plenty of miracles as written, such as God bringing the animals to the Ark (Genesis 6:20; 7:9, 15). It turns out that a study of existing, low-tech animal care methods answers trivial objections to the Ark. In fact, many solutions to seemingly insurmountable problems are rather straightforward.
How Did Noah Fit All the Animals on the Ark?

According to the Bible, the Ark had three decks (floors). It is not difficult to show that there was plenty of room for 16,000 animals (the maximum number of animals on the Ark, if the most liberal approach to counting animals is applied), assuming they required approximately the same floor space as animals in typical farm enclosures and laboratories. The vast majority of the creatures (birds, reptiles, and mammals) were small (the largest only a few hundred pounds of body weight). What’s more, many could have been housed in groups, which would have further reduced the required space.

It is still necessary to take account of the floor spaces required by large animals, such as elephants and rhinos. But even these, collectively, do not require a large area because it is most likely that these animals were young, but not newborns. Even the largest dinosaurs were relatively small when only a few years old.
What Did the Dinosaurs Eat?

Dinosaurs could have eaten basically the same foods as the other animals. The large sauropods could have eaten compressed hay, other dried plant material, seeds and grains, and the like. Carnivorous dinosaurs—if any were meat-eaters before the Flood—could have eaten dried meat, reconstituted dried meat, or slaughtered animals. Giant tortoises would have been ideal to use as food in this regard. They were large and needed little food to be maintained themselves. There are also exotic sources of meat, such as fish that wrap themselves in dry cocoons.

    It is not necessary—or required by Scripture—to appeal to miracles for the provision and daily care of the animals on the Ark. Many solutions to seemingly insurmountable problems are rather straightforward.

How Were the Animals Cared For?

We must distinguish between the long-term care required for animals kept in zoos and the temporary, emergency care required on the Ark. The animals’ comfort and healthy appearance were not essential for emergency survival during one stressful year, where survival was the primary goal.

Studies of nonmechanized animal care indicate that eight people could have fed and watered 16,000 creatures. The key is to avoid unnecessary walking around. As the old adage says, “Don’t work harder, work smarter.”

Therefore, Noah probably stored the food and water near each animal. Even better, drinking water could have been piped into troughs, just as the Chinese have used bamboo pipes for this purpose for thousands of years. The use of some sort of self-feeders, as is commonly done for birds, would have been relatively easy and probably essential. Animals that required special care or diets were uncommon and should not have needed an inordinate amount of time from the handlers. Even animals with the most specialized diets in nature could have been switched to readily sustainable substitute diets. Of course, this assumes that animals with specialized diets today were likewise specialized at the time of the Flood.
How Did the Animals Breathe?

Based on my two decades of research, I do not believe that anything more was needed than a basic, non-mechanical ventilation system. The density of animals on the Ark, compared to the volume of enclosed space, was much less than we find in some modern, mass animal housing used to keep stock raised for food (such as chicken farms), which requires no special mechanical ventilation.

It is reasonable to believe that one relatively small window would have adequately ventilated the Ark. Of course if there were a window along the top center section, which the Bible allows, all occupants would be even more comfortable. It is also interesting to note that the convective movement of air, driven by temperature differences between the warm-blooded animals and the cold interior surfaces, would have been significant enough to drive the flow of air. Plus, wind blowing into the window would have enhanced the ventilation further. However, if supplementary ventilation was necessary, it could have been provided by wave motion, fire thermal, or even a small number of animals harnessed to slow-moving rotary fans.
Proposed manure removing plan for the Ark

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Animal enclosures with sloped, self-cleaning floors, emptying into a manure gutter or pit.
What Did Noah and His Family Do with the Animal Waste?

As much as 12 U.S. tons (11 m. tons) of animal waste may have been produced daily. The key to keeping the enclosures clean was to avoid the need for Noah and his family to do the work. The right systems could also prevent the need to change animal bedding. Noah could have accomplished this in several ways. One possibility would be to allow the waste to accumulate below the animals, much as we see in modern pet shops. In this regard, there could have been slatted floors, and animals could have trampled their waste into the pits below. Small animals, such as birds, could have multiple levels in their enclosures, and waste could have simply accumulated at the bottom of each.

The danger of toxic or explosive manure gases, such as methane, would be alleviated by the constant movement of the Ark, which would have allowed manure gases to be constantly released. Secondly, methane, which is half the density of air, would quickly find its way out of a small opening such as a window. There is no reason to believe that the levels of these gases within the Ark would have approached hazardous levels.

Alternatively, sloped floors would have allowed the waste to flow into large central gutters. Noah’s family could have then dumped this overboard without an excessive expenditure of manpower.

The problem of manure odor may, at first thought, seem insurmountable. But we must remember that, throughout most of human history, humans lived together with their farm animals. Barns, separate from human living quarters, are a relatively recent development.

While the voyage of the Ark may not have been comfortable or easy, it was certainly doable, even under such unprecedented circumstances.
A Look Inside the Ark

This is a cross-section view of a possible design of the interior of the Ark.
Possible Ark layout

Click to enlarge.
Three Decks

Genesis 6:16 instructs that the Ark is to be made “with lower, second, and third decks” (NKJV). In this version of the Ark’s interior, there are two levels that do not extend across the entire width of the ship. These half-floors are not separate levels.
Animal Housing

Genesis 6:14 instructs Noah to “make rooms [nests] in the ark” (NKJV). These rooms or nests would simply be stalls and cages for the animals.
A model of the Ark

Model created by Tim Foley. Click to enlarge.

This scale model shows the effective design of Noah’s Ark. This second-floor model shows the extra half-floor within the three deck structure that could have been used for possible storage or animal housing.
Stairs

Several staircases and ladders could be fitted throughout the Ark to gain quick access to another deck. Ramps near the ends of the hull (as seen in Thinking Outside the Box) could be used to get animals and heavy loads between decks.
Food & Water

Mezzanine levels improve access to food storage, utilizing gravity to supply grain and water to the animal enclosures below. Water could be directed in pipes (metal, wood, leather, bamboo, etc.) from tanks on upper levels.
Light & Ventilation

The central skylight provides lighting and ventilation to the center section of the Ark. Slatted floors maximize airflow to the lower decks.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2009, 05:42:59 PM »
But Mark, that's not in Genesis so it must not be true!
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2009, 05:51:53 PM »
    Let's see, your "expert" says  about 16,000 animals would have fit into the Ark. According to About Animals at http://animals.about.com/b/2007/08/13/how-many-species-on-earth.htm, "the estimated number of animals on our planet falls somewhere in the vast range of 3 million to 30 million species (Erwin 1983, Wolosz 1988)." Thus, the Ark would supposedly have left a minimum of 2.84 million species to die in the Flood.
 
    But hey! If all those species died because they wouldn't fit on the Ark, how do we still have between 3 million and 30 million species alive and propagating on G-d's green Earth?
 
    I know! The 16,000 species saved by the Ark evolved into all those species!
 
    Or do you have another solution to this perplexing dilemma, Mark?
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2009, 06:06:30 PM »
But Mark, that's not in Genesis so it must not be true!
Its not in Genesis because its obvious! I know you and Kari are enjoying blowing kisses up each others butts about how smart you both are. My intent is not to compare IQs but to share some articles and alternatives to the "Evolution theory" (which has been shoved up my butt all through H.S. and College) I will continue to share that which I find interesting. I don't care if you think I'm dumb or wrong. That's on you! Frankly your arguments are getting pretty weak.  Your on the wrong thread?   Its not in Genesis? You don't even believe in the book of Genesis. You and Kari believe the first sentence and that's it!
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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2009, 06:18:48 PM »
    Let's see, your "expert" says  about 16,000 animals would have fit into the Ark. According to About Animals at http://animals.about.com/b/2007/08/13/how-many-species-on-earth.htm, "the estimated number of animals on our planet falls somewhere in the vast range of 3 million to 30 million species (Erwin 1983, Wolosz 1988)." Thus, the Ark would supposedly have left a minimum of 2.84 million species to die in the Flood.
 
    But hey! If all those species died because they wouldn't fit on the Ark, how do we still have between 3 million and 30 million species alive and propagating on G-d's green Earth?
 
    I know! The 16,000 species saved by the Ark evolved into all those species!
 
    Or do you have another solution to this perplexing dilemma, Mark?
Two of Every Kind
The Animals on Noah’s Ark
by Todd Charles Wood, Ph.D.
March 19, 2007
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When God warned Noah about the great Flood, He told him to build an enormous Ark to preserve Noah, his family, and at least two of every kind of land animal and flying creature. For centuries scoffers have mocked this account, claiming that it was impossible for the Ark to hold two of every kind.

As early as the second century AD, a Gnostic heretic named Appelles wrote that the Ark could not hold even two elephants. According to Appelles, this supposed error in Genesis showed that the Flood account could not have been inspired by God.1 Such arguments are still with us today. Scoffing isn’t going to stop, no matter how eloquently we explain the Ark account, because ultimately, the Bible must be accepted by faith, not by sight. Those without faith just can’t understand.

Scholars in past centuries tried to defend the Bible’s account of the Ark by expounding on details, such as how it might have been built; how food was stored and waste removed; and of course, how many animals were aboard. Their answers, especially in response to the last question, are very revealing. Writing in 1559, geometrician Johannes Buteo put the number of animals on the Ark in the hundreds.2 So did the first secretary of the Royal Society, Anglican Bishop John Wilkins in 1668.3 One reason for such low numbers was ignorance about animals in other parts of the world; for instance, neither Wilkins nor Buteo included kangaroos in their lists. But the more interesting reason is their view of “species,” most fully elaborated in Athanasius Kircher’s 1675 Arca Noë.4

Kircher, a Jesuit priest and scholar, concluded from his research that some of our modern species of animals were not on Noah’s Ark because they originated from other species after the Flood by a kind of divinely guided metamorphosis. In other words, after the Flood, some animals changed and generated new species. In this way, God did not have to preserve every modern species on the Ark. For example, Kircher believed that the North American bison was not aboard the Ark.5 He thought it might have originated after the Flood from some other cow-like animal.

Writing seven years before Kircher, Bishop Wilkins thought the same thing. When discussing the number of cattle on the Ark, he wrote that Noah needed only two basic cattle, arguing, “There being much less difference betwixt these, then there is betwixt several Dogs: And it being known by experience what various changes are frequently occasioned in the same species, by several countries, diets, and other accidents.”6 Like Kircher, Wilkins did not see a need (other than responding to skeptics) to put two bison on the Ark because they presumably could be generated from some other cow after the Flood “by several countries, diets, and other accidents.”6

This early view of animals and the Ark, which developed in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, is very similar to that of many creationists today. Creationist pioneer Byron Nelson wrote in 1928, “It is ... unjust to the Sacred Record to insist that the ark carried two of every variety, e.g., two fox terriers, two coyotes, two wolves, two jackals, two collies, etc. It is better to say that the ark carried two animals we might call ‘dogs,’ from which, after the flood, all the above-mentioned varieties have come.”7

    For land animals and birds, the created kind most often corresponds to the conventional classification rank called “family.”

Based on my own biological research into created kinds, I would be even bolder than Nelson. Over the past decade, I have worked to develop new methods of studying created kinds using statistics.8 This research is still very new and preliminary, but a pattern is beginning to emerge. For land animals and birds, the created kind most often corresponds to the conventional classification rank called “family,” which includes many species. There is evidence that the camel, horse, cat, dog, penguin, and iguana families are each a created kind.9 Like Nelson, I would put the coyote, wolf, jackal, and dog in the same kind, and I would include the fox. I would put the lion and house cat in another kind, and the llama and camel in yet another kind. Today these species (i.e., llama and camel) look amazingly different, but they seem to have been generated after the Flood from information already present within their parent kind. Lions, coyotes, and dromedary camels were probably not on the Ark but were born to parents within the cat, dog, and camel kinds.

How many animals were on Noah’s Ark? If created kinds really are families, as few as 2,000 individual animals might have been on the Ark.10 There were probably a bit more than that since the clean animals came in by sevens. Whatever the exact number, though, there would have been plenty of room to house these and their food, plus Noah and his family. Caring for these animals for a year would have been difficult but not impossible. God’s wisdom ensured that basic kinds of animals would survive the Flood by allowing individual species to change.
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~Teilhard de Chardin

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2009, 06:22:24 PM »
Flood Legends
The Significance of a World of Stories Based on Truth
by A. J. Monty White, Ph.D.
March 29, 2007
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There are hundreds of stories and legends about a worldwide flood. Why do diverse cultures share a strikingly similar story?

Did you know that stories about a worldwide flood are found in historic records all over the world? According to Dr. Duane Gish in his popular book Dinosaurs by Design, there are more than 270 such stories, most of which share a common theme and similar characters. So many flood stories with such similarities surely come from the Flood of Noah’s day.
A Historical Event

The worldwide catastrophic Flood, recorded in the book of Genesis, was a real event that affected real people. In fact, those people carried the knowledge of this event with them when they spread to the ends of the earth.

The Bible declares that the earth-covering cataclysm of Noah’s day is an obvious fact of history. People “willingly are ignorant [that] ... the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished” (2 Peter 3:5–6, KJV). This Flood left many evidences, from the fact that over 70% of the rocks on continents were laid down by water and contain fossils, to the widespread flood legends. Both of these evidences provide compelling support for this historical event.

If only eight people—Noah’s family—survived the Flood, we would expect there to be historical evidence of a worldwide flood. If you think about it, the evidence would be historical records in the nations of the world, and this is what we have, as the chart [below] indicates. Stories of the Flood—distorted though they may be—exist in practically all nations, from ancient Babylon onward. This evidence must not be lightly dismissed. If there never was a worldwide Flood, then why are there so many stories about it?
From Generation to Generation

The reason for these flood stories is not difficult to understand. When we turn to the history book of the universe, the Bible, we learn that Noah’s descendants stayed together for approximately 100 years, until God confused their languages at Babel (Genesis 11:1–9). As these people moved away from Babel, their descendants formed nations based primarily on the languages they shared in common. Through those languages, the story of the Flood was shared, until it became embedded in their cultural history.
Similar Stories

Hawaiians have a flood story that tells of a time when, long after the death of the first man, the world became a wicked, terrible place. Only one good man was left, and his name was Nu-u. He made a great canoe with a house on it and filled it with animals. In this story, the waters came up over all the earth and killed all the people; only Nu-u and his family were saved.

Another flood story is from China. It records that Fuhi, his wife, three sons, and three daughters escaped a great flood and were the only people alive on earth. After the great flood, they repopulated the world.

As the story of the Flood was verbally passed from one generation to the next, some aspects would have been lost or altered. And this is what has happened, as we can see from the chart. However, as seen in the given examples, each story shares remarkable similarities to the account of Noah in the Bible. This is true even in some of the details, such as the name Nu-u in the Hawaiian flood story. “Nu-u” is very similar to “Noah.”
What These Stories Mean

God clearly sent a worldwide Flood to punish humankind for their evil and corrupt ways (Genesis 6:5, 11). Even though Flood-affirming evidence from geology and other areas of study is abundant, we don’t need this evidence to know what happened. Starting with the Bible and the history that God faithfully recorded there, Christians have a tool to interpret the evidence that evolutionists and non-Christians do not. We have the record of what happened, from the One who was there.
Global flood traditions

Dr. Duane Gish, in Dinosaurs by Design, says there are more than 270 stories from different cultures around the world about a devastating flood. This chart shows the similarities that several myths have with the Genesis account of Noah’s Flood. Although there are varying degrees of accuracy, these legends and stories all contain similarities to aspects of the same historical event—Noah’s Flood.

Click to enlarge.

Chart adapted from B.C. Nelson, The Deluge Story in Stone, Appendix 11, Flood Traditions, Figure 38, Augsburg, Minneapolis, 1931.

Visit Get Answers: Noah’s Flood to read more accounts of the Flood from around the world.

Dr. Monty White earned his B.Sc. degree in chemistry and his Ph.D. in gas kinetics from the University of Wales, Aberystwyth. Dr. White is now the CEO of Answers in Genesis-UK/Europe and has traveled extensively throughout Europe lecturing on creationists’ views of origins.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2009, 06:53:04 PM »
... "Based on my own biological research into created kinds, I would be even bolder than Nelson. Over the past decade, I have worked to develop new methods of studying created kinds using statistics.8 This research is still very new and preliminary, but a pattern is beginning to emerge. For land animals and birds, the created kind most often corresponds to the conventional classification rank called “family,” which includes many species. There is evidence that the camel, horse, cat, dog, penguin, and iguana families are each a created kind.9 Like Nelson, I would put the coyote, wolf, jackal, and dog in the same kind, and I would include the fox. I would put the lion and house cat in another kind, and the llama and camel in yet another kind. Today these species (i.e., llama and camel) look amazingly different, but they seem to have been generated after the Flood from information already present within their parent kind. Lions, coyotes, and dromedary camels were probably not on the Ark but were born to parents within the cat, dog, and camel kinds.

How many animals were on Noah’s Ark? If created kinds really are families, as few as 2,000 individual animals might have been on the Ark.10 There were probably a bit more than that since the clean animals came in by sevens. Whatever the exact number, though, there would have been plenty of room to house these and their food, plus Noah and his family. ..... . God’s wisdom ensured that basic kinds of animals would survive the Flood by allowing individual species to change.

   Your author seems to argue against evolution by arguing for evolution!  What did individual species change into? Other species, he says! That's evolution.
 
    Your arguments and your sources are losing credibility every time you post, Mark.
 
    I would suggest you read Kari's last post and do yourself a favor and stop posting this stuff. Spend more time in the Bible and in prayer, really getting to know your G-d. Ask him for a new revelation about his character and his glory.
 
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!"

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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2009, 06:56:40 PM »
Its not in Genesis because its obvious! I know you and Kari are enjoying blowing kisses up each others butts about how smart you both are. ....

Nice talk from a so-called Christian.
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Re: THE FLOOD
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2009, 07:01:29 PM »

   Your author seems to argue against evolution by arguing for evolution!  What did individual species change into? Other species, he says! That's evolution.
 
    Your arguments and your sources are losing credibility every time you post, Mark.
 
    I would suggest you read Kari's last post and do yourself a favor and stop posting this stuff. Spend more time in the Bible and in prayer, really getting to know your G-d. Ask him for a new revelation about his character and his glory.
 
I would suggest you start believing the Bible that you read so much!
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin