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Author Topic: IDA TRUTHS!  (Read 4830 times)

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Offline mark

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IDA TRUTHS!
« on: May 21, 2009, 02:34:14 PM »

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da: the Missing Link at Last?                                              Does Ida Deserve the Attention? A Preliminary Comment                                       May 19, 2009                                  Layman                                          Keywords                                                                                                                 At a Glance      
  • Researchers have identified a new “missing link” nicknamed Ida.
  • The allegedly 47-million-year-old fossil was discovered in Germany.
  • Despite the headlines, Ida gives no support to primate (or human) evolution.
        For all the headlines and proclamations, this “missing link” story includes an amazing amount of hot air.
A story we first previewed on May 16 has since rocketed to the heights of media hype as a team of scientists reveals “Ida,” the latest and greatest supposed missing link. But does Ida actually support “the evolution of early primates, and, ultimately, modern human beings,” as one news outlet reported?1
Another reporter raved, “The search for a direct connection between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom has taken 200 years—but it was presented to the world today at a special news conference in New York.”2
Formally identified as Darwinius masillae (in honor of Charles Darwin), the fossil originated in Germany and is purportedly 47 million years old. One scientist gave the find the nickname Ida (after his daughter).       Darwinius masillae fossil     
Atlantic Productions / revealingthelink.com
Despite the hype, Ida looks nothing like a transitional “apeman,” instead looking quite like a modern lemur.       As for a more level-headed explanation of the evolutionary excitement, the Wall Street Journal reports:          Anthropologists have long believed that humans evolved from ancient ape-like ancestors. Some 50 million years ago, two ape-like groups walked the Earth. One is known as the tarsidae, a precursor of the tarsier, a tiny, large-eyed creature that lives in Asia. Another group is known as the adapidae, a precursor of today's lemurs in Madagascar.
Based on previously limited fossil evidence, one big debate had been whether the tarsidae or adapidae group gave rise to monkeys, apes, and humans. The latest discovery bolsters the less common position that our ancient ape-like ancestor was an adapid, the believed precursor of lemurs.        Thus, rather than an apeman-like missing link that some media sources have irresponsibly implied, the real story is quite underwhelming and should in no way faze creationists. Let’s first review the facts:      
  • The well-preserved fossil (95 percent complete, including fossilized fur and more) is about the size of a raccoon and includes a long tail. It resembles the skeleton of a lemur (a small, tailed, tree-climbing primate). The fossil does not resemble a human skeleton.
  • The fossil was found in two parts by amateur fossil hunters in 1983. It eventually made its way through fossil dealers to the research team.
  • Ida has opposable thumbs, which the ABC News article states are “similar to humans’ and unlike those found on other modern mammals” (i.e., implying that opposable thumbs are evidence of evolution). Yet lemurs today have opposable thumbs (like all primates). Likewise, Ida has nails, as do other primates. And the talus bone is described as “the same shape as in humans,” despite the fact that there are other differences in the ankle structure.3
  • Unlike today’s lemurs (as far as scientists know), Ida lacks the “grooming claw” and a “toothcomb” (a fused row of teeth) In fact, its teeth are more similar to a monkey’s. These are minor differences easily explained by variation within a kind.
      Given these facts, it may seem incredible that anyone would hail this find as a “missing link.” Yet British naturalist David Attenborough claims:          “Now people can say, ‘Okay, you say we’re primates . . . show us the link.’ The link, they would have said until now, is missing. Well, it is no longer missing.”       Unbelievably, Attenborough claims his interpretation is “not a question of imagination.”      The Creationist Interpretation           The Real Story of this “Scientific Breakthrough”      While Ida has hit the mainstream media—and will even be featured on Good Morning America Wednesday—what is the real story? Has Ida been exposed to good scientific review? To the contrary, the Guardian reports:           Jørn Hurum, at the University of Oslo, the scientist who assembled the international team of researchers to study Ida is relaxed about using the phrase [“missing link” to describe Ida]. “Why not? I think we could use that phrase for this kind of specimen,” he said. “[People] have a feeling that if something is important it is a missing link.”
n the paper published in PLoS ONE from the Public Library of Science on the fossil [the author] is more circumspect. “Darwinius masillae is important in being exceptionally well-preserved and providing a much more complete understanding of the paleobiology of an Eocene primate than was available in the past,” the authors wrote.
“[The species] could represent a stem group from which later anthropoid primates evolved [the line leading to humans], but we are not advocating this here.”
The paper’s scientific reviewers asked that they tone down their original claims that the fossil was on the human evolutionary line.
One of those reviewers, Professor John Fleagle at Stony Brook University in New York state said that would be a judgment for the scientific community. “That will be sorted out or at least debated extensively in the coming years once the paper is published,” he said. [Emphases added]        So despite the treatment most media reports are giving Ida, the research team behind Ida was asked to remove their speculation from their peer-reviewed paper! Even so, the Guardian also reports, “There is even talk of Ida being the first non-living thing to feature on the front cover of People magazine.” Indeed, it seems that the pitch of Ida as the missing link is full-out sensationalism by people who are bypassing the scientific community with a direct-to-the-public appeal on behalf of Darwinism.
Meanwhile, the New York Times has reported:          [D]espite a television teaser campaign with the slogan “This changes everything” and comparisons to the moon landing and the Kennedy assassination, the significance of this discovery may not be known for years. An article to be published on Tuesday in PLoS ONE, a scientific journal, will report more prosaically that the scientists involved said the fossil could be a “stem group” that was a precursor to higher primates, with the caveat, “but we are not advocating this.”           All of this seems a departure from the normal turn of events, where researchers study their subject and publish their findings, and let the media chips fall where they may.       And the Australian, in an article titled “Scientists Divided on Ida as the Missing Link,” adds:           [Coauthor Philip] Gingerich told the Wall Street Journal: “There was a TV company involved and time pressure. We’ve been pushed to finish the study. It’s not how I like to do science.”
“That rings all sorts of warning bells,” [University of New England paleoanthropologist Peter] Brown cautioned. He said that however it was prepared, the paper did not provide sufficient proof that Ida was the ancestral anthropoid.
“It’s nice it has fingernails, something we have, as do most primates . . . but they’ve cherry-picked particular character[istics] and they’ve been criticized (by other scientists) for doing that.”          The principles that inform creationists about Ida are some of the same that allow creationists to interpret fossil after fossil hailed as “transitional forms”:      
  • Nothing about this fossil suggests it is anything other than an extinct, lemur-like creature. Its appearance is far from chimpanzee, let alone “apeman” or human.
  • A fossil can never show evolution. Fossils are unchanging records of dead organisms. Evolution is an alleged process of change in live organisms. Fossils show “evolution” only if one presupposes evolution, then uses that presupposed belief to interpret the fossil.
  • Similarities can never show evolution. If two organisms have similar structures, the only thing it proves is that the two have similar structures. One must presuppose evolution to say that the similarities are due to evolution rather than design. Furthermore, when it comes to “transitional forms,” the slightest similarities often receive great attention while major differences are ignored.
  • The remarkable preservation is a hallmark of rapid burial. Team member Jørn Hurum of the University of Oslo said, “This fossil is so complete. Everything’s there. It’s unheard of in the primate record at all. You have to get to human burial to see something that’s this complete.” Even the contents of Ida’s stomach were preserved. While the researchers believe Ida sunk to the bottom of a lake and was buried, this preservation is more consistent with a catastrophic flood.4 Yet Ida was found with “hundreds of well-preserved specimens.”5
  • If evolution were true, there would be real transitional forms. Instead, the best “missing links” evolutionists can come up with are strikingly similar to organisms we see today, usually with the exception of minor, controversial, and inferred anatomical differences.
  • Evolutionists only open up about the lack of fossil missing links once a new one is found. Sky News reports, “Researchers say proof of this transitional species finally confirms Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution,” while Attenborough commented that the missing link “is no longer missing.” So are they admitting the evidence was missing until now (supposedly)?
      So it’s clear what Ida is not. As for our conclusion on what Ida is, we wrote in News to Note:          ecause the fossil is similar to a modern lemur (a small, tailed, tree-climbing primate), it’s unlikely that creationists need any interpretation of the “missing link” other than that it was a small, tailed, probably tree-climbing, and now extinct primate—from a kind created on Day 6 of Creation Week.       Much of the excitement over Ida appears to stem from a well-coordinated public relations effort to promote an upcoming documentary and a new book titled The Link. The documentary will air on the History Channel in the U.S. (as The Link) on May 25 at 9 p.m. ET/PT. It will air on BBC One in the UK (as Uncovering Our Earliest Ancestor: The Link) on Tuesday May 26th at 9 p.m. Filmmaker Atlantic Productions even launched a website to promote the discovery, revealingthelink.com.
Yet as Hurum commented, “This fossil will probably be pictured in all the textbooks for the next 100 years.” So while the media rush may at first be a bid to promote the documentary and book, the ultimate result is one more trumped-up “missing link” presented to future generations as evidence of evolution.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2009, 09:11:21 PM »
They sure didn't take very long in constructing their observations did they?  They already have an article out for you to copy and paste! 

Wow!

The propaganda machine turns...

Offline kari

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2009, 09:34:53 PM »
"A fossil can never show evolution", "Similarities can never show evolution", "If evolution were true, there would be real transitional forms" thosethree statements alone, show that Creationists cannever/will neveradmit that the Bible story of creation is just a lovely story for children or adults that lack REAL faith in a Creator. A person that can accept that the Biblical accounts are just stories, and STILL have faith,are those whose faith will not waver.

Mark still has yet to answer the questions I've posted before......will you still believe in G_D, if the Bible is proven to be only stories, not 100% truth?  Do you feel that if the Bible is proven to be only stories, that it will prove there is no G_D? 
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Offline shadylane

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2009, 08:03:37 AM »
I wouldn't call Ida the missing link, just the oldest one found so far. She does cause problems for the creationist.
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline shadylane

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2009, 08:07:53 AM »
If the biblical flood were true then there would be millions of fossils, scattered all over the world that date to the same time.
 
"The remarkable preservation is a hallmark of rapid burial. Team member Jørn Hurum of the University of Oslo said, “This fossil is so complete. Everything’s there. It’s unheard of in the primate record at all. You have to get to human burial to see something that’s this complete.” Even the contents of Ida’s stomach were preserved. While the researchers believe Ida sunk to the bottom of a lake and was buried, this preservation is more consistent with a catastrophic flood.4 Yet Ida was found with “hundreds of well-preserved specimens.”
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2009, 12:15:42 PM »
There is no truth in this article.

Only more creationist propaganda.

Offline Coyote

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2009, 01:17:45 PM »
No one...absolutely no one can state that something is 47 million years old.  Stupid.
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Offline mark

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2009, 02:06:08 PM »

Ida: the Real Story of this “Scientific Breakthrough”
How Business Promotion Trumped Scientific Integrity
May 21, 2009
Layman
Keywords

    * fossils
    * human-evolution
    * missing-link
    * news
    * transitional-forms

So-called “missing link” Ida hit the media in a major way on Tuesday of this week, with even search engine Google falling prey to the hype and modifying its search page banner to show Ida. We quickly responded with a full article, Ida: the Missing Link at Last?

Yet within a few hours of the unveiling of the fossil—coordinated to coincide with the publication of the scientific paper on Ida—some better media outlets began to report some worrying things about the research. It seems as though the scientific process had been rushed and the claims exaggerated in a bid to promote a new documentary and book on the fossil. Sadly, media pressures sometimes trump full research integrity (something we’ve seen before), and careless media sources reprint explosive (and unjustified) quotations without consulting as many scientists as they should. Thankfully, though, many in the scientific community are questioning the research and beginning to become more vocal about their concerns regarding how good science and media aren’t the best mix.

But don’t just take our word for it—read these amazing excerpts that reveal the Ida hype for what it truly is.

    Jørn Hurum, at the University of Oslo, the scientist who assembled the international team of researchers to study Ida is relaxed about using the phrase [“missing link” to describe Ida]. “Why not? I think we could use that phrase for this kind of specimen,” he said. “[People] have a feeling that if something is important it is a missing link.”

    n the paper published in PLoS ONE from the Public Library of Science on the fossil [the author] is more circumspect. “Darwinius masillae is important in being exceptionally well-preserved and providing a much more complete understanding of the paleobiology of an Eocene primate than was available in the past,” the authors wrote.

    “[The species] could represent a stem group from which later anthropoid primates evolved [the line leading to humans], but we are not advocating this here.”

    The paper’s scientific reviewers asked that they tone down their original claims that the fossil was on the human evolutionary line.

    One of those reviewers, Professor John Fleagle at Stony Brook University in New York state said that would be a judgment for the scientific community. “That will be sorted out or at least debated extensively in the coming years once the paper is published,” he said.

“Is Fossil Ida a Missing Link in Evolution?”
James Randerson, The Guardian, May 19, 2009

    [D]espite a television teaser campaign with the slogan “This changes everything” and comparisons to the moon landing and the Kennedy assassination, the significance of this discovery may not be known for years. An article to be published on Tuesday in PLoS ONE, a scientific journal, will report more prosaically that the scientists involved said the fossil could be a “stem group” that was a precursor to higher primates, with the caveat, “but we are not advocating this.”

    All of this seems a departure from the normal turn of events, where researchers study their subject and publish their findings, and let the media chips fall where they may.

“Seeking a Missing Link, and a Mass Audience”
Tim Arango, The New York Times, May 19, 2009

    University of New England paleoanthropologist Peter Brown remains skeptical. He pointed to a story in the Weekend Australian in which one of [coauthor Jørn] Hurum’s coauthors, University of Michigan paleontologist Philip Gingerich, said the team would have preferred to publish in a more rigorous journal such as Science or Nature.

    Dr. Gingerich told the Wall Street Journal: “There was a TV company involved and time pressure. We’ve been pushed to finish the study. It’s not how I like to do science.”

    “That rings all sorts of warning bells,” Professor Brown cautioned. He said that however it was prepared, the paper did not provide sufficient proof that Ida was the ancestral anthropoid.

    “It’s nice it has fingernails, something we have, as do most primates . . . but they’ve cherry-picked particular character[istics] and they’ve been criticized (by other scientists) for doing that.”

“Scientists Divided on Ida as the Missing Link”
Leigh Dayton, The Australian, May 21, 2009

    “On the whole I think the evidence is less than convincing,” said Chris Gilbert, a paleoanthropologist at Yale University. “They make an intriguing argument but I would definitely say that the consensus is not in favor of the hypothesis they're proposing.” . . .

    “The PR campaign on this fossil is I think more of a story than the fossil itself,” said anthropologist Matt Cartmill of Duke University in North Carolina. “It’s a very beautiful fossil, but I didn’t see anything in this paper that told me anything decisive that was new.”

    Most experts agree that the find is significant, if only for its impressive degree of completeness, but some were put off by the bells and whistles that went along with the publicity campaign around Ida. . . .

    “It’s not a missing link, it’s not even a terribly close relative to monkeys, apes and humans, which is the point they’re trying to make,” [Carnegie Museum of Natural History curator of vertebrate paleontology Chris] Beard said.

“Amid Media Circus, Scientists Doubt ‘Ida’ Is Your Ancestor
Clara Moskowitz, LiveScience, May 20, 2009

    Many paleontologists are unconvinced. They point out that Hurum and Gingerich’s analysis compared 30 traits in the new fossil with primitive and higher primates when standard practice is to analyze 200 to 400 traits and to include anthropoids from Egypt and the newer fossils of Eosimias from Asia, both of which were missing from the analysis in the paper. “There is no phylogenetic analysis to support the claims, and the data is cherry-picked,” says paleontologist Richard Kay . . . of Duke University. Callum Ross, a paleontologist at the University of Chicago in Illinois agrees: “Their claim that this specimen should be classified as haplorhine is unsupportable in light of modern methods of classification.”

    Other researchers grumble that by describing the history of anthropoids as “somewhat speculatively identified lineages of isolated teeth,” the PLoS paper dismisses years of new fossils. “It’s like going back to 1994,” says paleontologist K. Christopher Beard of the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, who has published jaw, teeth, and limb bones of Eosimias. “They’ve ignored 15 years of literature.”

“‘Revolutionary’ Fossil Fails to Dazzle Paleontologists”
Ann Gibbons, ScienceNOW, May 19, 2009

    Science is supposed to be methodical, and usually it is, sometimes to the point of being dull. But there are times when a little hoopla is called for. Major discoveries that rewrite the textbooks deserve big headlines and ubiquitous media coverage and lots of scientific slaps on the back and all that.

    The discovery of the “Ida” fossil, announced this week as though the 47-million-year-old lemur-like female were a rock star, seemed at first like one to celebrate.

    Today we know better. . . . [T]here are doubts about whether [humans are] really descended from Ida. Problem is, most of the coverage is done, and the public could be left with the impression that Ida is a rock-solid missing link in the human evolutionary chain. . . .

    “It’s not a missing link, it’s not even a terribly close relative to monkeys, apes and humans, which is the point they’re trying to make,” said Chris Beard, a curator of vertebrate paleontology at the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh. . . .

    The debacle started to unfold when the finding, cloaked in secrecy while a media engine was being primed, leaked out in The Wall Street Journal, and then in London’s Daily Mail. Then The New York Times wrote about the media circus that was to ensue. All this was published before anyone but the research team (and its tightly controlled media team) knew the details of the finding. . . .

    Ida’s unveiling was highly scripted (with some “Barnum and Bailey aspects,” said paleontologist Richard Kay of Duke University). More important, it can now be said the findings may well have been significantly overstated. We won’t know for sure until further research is done. But if this event causes the public to distrust science and media, that distrust is well placed.

“Ida Fossil Hype Went Too Far”
Robert Roy Britt, LiveScience, May 20, 2009

    Dr Chris Beard, curator of the Carnegie Museum of Natural History and author of The Hunt for the Dawn Monkey, said he was "awestruck" by the publicity machine surrounding the new fossil. . . .

    But he added: "I would be absolutely dumbfounded if it turns out to be a potential ancestor to humans."

“Scientists Hail Stunning Fossil”
Christine McGourty, BBC News, May 19, 2009
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline oldcowpoke

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2009, 04:35:58 PM »
There is no truth in this article.

Only more creationist propaganda.

What HE said.

Offline kari

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2009, 07:42:49 PM »
Still waiting for answers Mark.......can't cut and paste, only YOU can answer them.
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Offline What_The?

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2009, 07:49:15 PM »
He's yet to answer any relevant questions, and let's face it, he won't.

He does not understand science, he only accepts what he has prejudged to be true.

Considering that the same people reply to his posts over and over, and he has yet to acknowledge a single point, I'd say we're better off just relegating all of this to the :deadhorse: pile.

He won't examine himself, much less his beliefs, because he has to be 100% correct in everything he professes to be the truth.

In the end, there is nothing that can change the mind of a cultist who wants to be in a cult.
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline mark

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2009, 08:07:36 PM »
OK, You wanted a hypothetical answer to the hypothetical question "What would I do If all the missing links were found"? I would (hypothetically) admit I was wrong.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
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Offline Coyote

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2009, 08:11:36 PM »
There aren't any "missing links."  There are only extinct species.
....and that night as the moon crossed the mountain, one more Coyote was heard...

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2009, 08:28:55 PM »
You can't prove to me that the Earth is a mere 7000 years old when there are civilizations on Earth that are at least 8000 years old...

Iran has about 8000 years of history. 

If you extend this argument to cultures (yes, there is a difference between a culture and a civilization) then we have to look at the Australian Aborigens which are around 45,000 years old and dont't forget the Bushmen of southern Africa... they can be we can traced to aruond 20,000 years BC.

Big jump for 7000 eh?

Do you realize why and how things are place with aging?  Look around you... how long does it take to form a moutain?  I guess God did it in, what?  7 days right... but... prove it.

Its not really too hard to grasp the idea of the earth being millions of years old... think about that vastness of space.

We really aren't that important if you think about it in terms of us versus the universe...  but I know some of you still believe the sun revolves around Earth... so... I don't really expect much we considering anything in space.

For all I know Mark may think the world is flat still... not sure... He definately thinks that its a circle.

No one...absolutely no one can state that something is 47 million years old.  Stupid.

Offline kari

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2009, 09:17:08 PM »
OK, You wanted a hypothetical answer to the hypothetical question "What would I do If all the missing links were found"? I would (hypothetically) admit I was wrong.
That was not the questions......What happens to your faith, if it is proven that the Bible's story of creation is just that, a story, not factual?  That really is what we've been discussing.  Many of us that accept science's explanation, evolution, realize that the Bible's story of creation is just a story, BUT faith is not shaken.  It is not a matter of admitting being wrong, it is a matter of how strong your faith is, without relying on Biblical accounts.  I believe this may be more of a question(s) you need to ask yourself.
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Offline mark

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2009, 09:25:26 PM »
You can't prove to me that the Earth is a mere 7000 years old when there are civilizations on Earth that are at least 8000 years old...

Iran has about 8000 years of history. 

If you extend this argument to cultures (yes, there is a difference between a culture and a civilization) then we have to look at the Australian Aborigens which are around 45,000 years old and dont't forget the Bushmen of southern Africa... they can be we can traced to aruond 20,000 years BC.

Big jump for 7000 eh?

Do you realize why and how things are place with aging?  Look around you... how long does it take to form a moutain?  I guess God did it in, what?  7 days right... but... prove it.

Its not really too hard to grasp the idea of the earth being millions of years old... think about that vastness of space.

We really aren't that important if you think about it in terms of us versus the universe...  but I know some of you still believe the sun revolves around Earth... so... I don't really expect much we considering anything in space.

For all I know Mark may think the world is flat still... not sure... He definately thinks that its a circle.

I do think the earth is the center of the universe.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
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Offline mark

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2009, 09:30:42 PM »

Ancient Calendars
Written by: Paul Abramson

Calendars of ancient peoples help to confirm the Biblical time frame. They point to a 6,000 year span, which is consistent with a literal reading of the Bible.

The Chinese calendar, for example, is at about the year 4704.It appears to mark the birthdate of either Shem or Noah. Their civilization does not at all predate that time. But they have laid claim to this particular starting point or starting person's origin.

Not only cultures, but organizations want to establish their historical stability. For example, "Daughters of the American Revolution"(as one organization) can point to a long heritage. Wanting to establish a strong past has been important for many peoples.

Although completely different in nature - in a similar way - the Catholic Church tries to establish credibility by claiming a priesthood down from St. Peter. The longevity gives an appearance of greater authority, no matter the current batch of priests and bishops, etc. Businesses too may do this when they boast of how long they've been established.(The web page for Hudson's Bay Co. boasts of their 1670 establishment, for example.)

Establishing credibility or seniority - this happens today.Certainly past peoples did so as well. The Egyptians appear to have tried to get their "origins" to be older than others. Did they "fudge a little"?The Sumerians somehow dated the life spans of early rulers into the "thousands" of years. It is an interesting exaggeration of the true pre-Flood life expectancies of the pre-Flood patriarchs.  They actually live up to around 900-950 years.
 I hope this reasoning helps to clarify the "human propensity" to seek validation and credibility with the true (and unexaggerated) Biblical time framework.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
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Offline oldcowpoke

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2009, 09:39:35 PM »
I do think the earth is the center of the universe.
If you are serious, and speaking literally, I think this is all we need to know about you. It proves without a shadow of doubt that you are a brick short of a full load. Believing this has nothing to do with christianity or creationism. This is idiocy. The earth is not even the center of this solar system, let alone the entire universe.

I will never read another thing you post, regardless of the topic.


Offline mark

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2009, 09:42:12 PM »
If you are serious, and speaking literally, I think this is all we need to know about you. It proves without a shadow of doubt that you are a brick short of a full load. Believing this has nothing to do with christianity or creationism. This is idiocy.

I will never read another thing you post, regardless of the topic.
Why isn't it?
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
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Offline mark

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2009, 11:39:22 PM »
If you are serious, and speaking literally, I think this is all we need to know about you. It proves without a shadow of doubt that you are a brick short of a full load. Believing this has nothing to do with christianity or creationism. This is idiocy. The earth is not even the center of this solar system, let alone the entire universe.

I will never read another thing you post, regardless of the topic.


That's all it took? I should have said that a long time ago!
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2009, 12:26:16 PM »
Is it flat as well?

I do think the earth is the center of the universe.

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2009, 01:41:31 PM »
I do think the earth is the center of the universe.

Mark, apparently you've been reading the writings of a tiny group known as "geocentrists." I've got a couple of their books myself, mostly because I wanted to see how anybody could actually argue for this in the face of five centuries of study by strongly conservative Christian scientists as well as non-Christian scientists.

If you keep looking into the geocentrist arguments, you'll find most if not all creationists are strongly opposed to them. In fact, most creationists are embarrassed to have anything to do with the geocentrist stuff, and are rather insistent in their opposition to it.

There is a reason why the followers of the Protestant Reformation in the 1500s and 1600s, who took a "scripture alone" postion, had no problem with believing that science might show that the earth revolves around the sun. In those days the scientific evidence truly **WAS** in doubt and some Protestants supported geocentrism while others supported heliocentrism, but both sides of that debate generally agreed this was a subject that the Bible didn't address and was a legitimate question for scientific inquiry.
 
By contrast, Roman Catholic scientists (such as Galileo) had to deal with centuries of church fathers who, based on secular Greek science, had taught that the earth is the center of the universe. To say that the earth revolves around the sun meant to say many leaders of the church had been wrong on some important issues. It took a fair amount of time before the Roman Catholic Church decided -- correctly -- that all of the church fathers who supported geocentrism had been paying more attention to Greek science than to the Bible.

Personally, I think that's a good example of what goes wrong when we elevate scientific investigation -- which by definition can never come to any such thing as absoute truth, only a better-supported theory -- into the role that ought to be reserved for Scripture.
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Offline mark

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2009, 01:48:26 PM »
 Having been around the sun forty eight times now, I have learned that the observable UNIVERSE is but a small portion of what is actually out there! No one can say for sure the earth is not at the center. It turns out pretty cool when the earth is at the center, see Russell Humphry's work on (white holes).   (Starlight and Time)
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
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Offline mark

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2009, 01:51:57 PM »

Big Problems With The Big Bang
Written by: Bruce Malone

It has been demonstrated both mathematically and experimentally that time is not a constant, but is dependent on the gravitational pull at the location where time is being measured. This concept was first proposed by Albert Einstein and is called gravitational time dilation.

Numerous experiments seem to indicate that this strange concept is true. For instance, time moves 5 microseconds per year slower at the Royal Greenwich Observatory (which is located at sea level) than it does at the National Bureau of Standards in Boulder, Colorado (which is 1 mile above sea level). Atomic clocks flown around the world in different directions seem to vary by the amount predicted by Einstein’s equations. The direct result of this gravitational time dilation is that seemingly strange things happen to time near areas of space known as black holes.

A black hole is an area where matter is so concentrated that its gravity prevents even light from escaping. Indirect observations seem to indicate that several areas of our universe do indeed contain black holes. Black holes are so dense that they actually "bend" the fabric of space. In addition, time moves exceedingly slow at the boundary of the black hole. Thus, if you could move from the center of a black hole outward, while observing what was happening far away, it would appear that clocks and all natural processes were proceeding in rapid fast-forward. Although one has never been observed, Einstein’s equations also predict the existence of "white holes". Instead of collapsing inward, matter (and space itself) would expand outward from a "white hole". When matter inside the white hole moves past the boundary, the boundary begins to shrink inward. Eventually the radius shrinks to zero and the white hole disappears, leaving behind all of the matter which it originally contained. However, the first material out would have aged millions or billions of years while the last material out may only have aged a matter of days.

Dr. Russell Humphreys has proposed that this expansion of a "white hole" rather than the standard "big bang" theory is the method God used to create the universe we live in. Three effects should be apparent if this is how our universe formed. First, the expansion of space would have left a very uniform background radiation throughout the universe. Second, as space itself expanded, the light coming from stars (which formed as the matter moved out of the white hole) would be shifted toward the red end of the spectrum. Third, if the earth was close to the center of our universe, it would have been one of the last things to have emerged from the white hole. Billions of years would have elapsed for distant stars giving plenty of time for light from those stars to have reached the earth. These three observations are exactly what we find as we observe our universe!

From the moment that all the matter of the universe was created (day one of creation), until the earth emerged from near the center of the white hole (at which point stars would have appeared), it is quite mathematically feasible that only four 24-hour-days had passed on earth. Although this theory is quite controversial (and rejected out of hand by those who are committed to evolutionary development theories), this type of work demonstrates that there is not necessarily a contradiction between a six day creation and modern science.
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
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Offline dixonbob

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2009, 04:13:31 PM »
The no-longer-missing link?
Folks who subscribe to the theory of evolution have long wondered about the famed missing link: That creature that connected human beings with other mammals. Turns out, scientists may have found it. They've been studying it for two years, but the find was kept a secret until recently. And what a find it is: the fossilized remains of a 47-million-year-old primate. A Guardian article detailing the fossil's finding was among the week's most popular stories. It explains that the fossil will have a huge impact on the study of human history and its images will likely be found in text books for the next 100 years. Oh, and in case you were wondering, the fossil was named "Ida," after the daughter of one of the scientists.
FOUND the ignore button. Ha Ha

Offline mark

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2009, 12:28:25 AM »
 I wonder If I can submit Bob as the missing link?
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
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Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2009, 02:59:37 AM »
The role that ought to be reserved for Scripture...

Who's scripture?

Mark, apparently you've been reading the writings of a tiny group known as "geocentrists." I've got a couple of their books myself, mostly because I wanted to see how anybody could actually argue for this in the face of five centuries of study by strongly conservative Christian scientists as well as non-Christian scientists.

If you keep looking into the geocentrist arguments, you'll find most if not all creationists are strongly opposed to them. In fact, most creationists are embarrassed to have anything to do with the geocentrist stuff, and are rather insistent in their opposition to it.

There is a reason why the followers of the Protestant Reformation in the 1500s and 1600s, who took a "scripture alone" postion, had no problem with believing that science might show that the earth revolves around the sun. In those days the scientific evidence truly **WAS** in doubt and some Protestants supported geocentrism while others supported heliocentrism, but both sides of that debate generally agreed this was a subject that the Bible didn't address and was a legitimate question for scientific inquiry.
 
By contrast, Roman Catholic scientists (such as Galileo) had to deal with centuries of church fathers who, based on secular Greek science, had taught that the earth is the center of the universe. To say that the earth revolves around the sun meant to say many leaders of the church had been wrong on some important issues. It took a fair amount of time before the Roman Catholic Church decided -- correctly -- that all of the church fathers who supported geocentrism had been paying more attention to Greek science than to the Bible.

Personally, I think that's a good example of what goes wrong when we elevate scientific investigation -- which by definition can never come to any such thing as absoute truth, only a better-supported theory -- into the role that ought to be reserved for Scripture.

Offline mark

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2009, 02:05:15 PM »
  DIXONBOB---THE ---MISSING---LINK
        Shorter than most humans, but at least he's not a flea flickin Leamer. He's got fur over most of his body (looks like ape fur).  And the toe nails! If Bob can't scurry up a tree without using his hands, I'll eat my hat. (seriously their freaky). Oh yea, He's missing a tooth, or is that me? Does anyone have the number to the History channel, or a good evolutionist publisher? I want to get the funds all straight before I release this information to the public.
                          He held this fish with his toenails and ate it raw!
                                                             

                                                                                                               

                                           

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We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
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Offline dixonbob

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2009, 02:34:58 PM »
Dont forget the tail. Oh wait! Thats not my tail. LOL
FOUND the ignore button. Ha Ha

Offline mark

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Re: IDA TRUTHS!
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2009, 02:37:14 PM »
LOL  (Almost forgot, he thinks he born with a tail)  I ask you, who has the better "missing link"?
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin