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Author Topic: Dick Cheney  (Read 13887 times)

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Offline kbohon

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2007, 04:03:23 PM »

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Fish, Bush manipulated supply and demand. His cabinet ignored the Geneva Convention. The U.S. was permitted to torture and kidnap. Now, I've noticed you like to use sarcasm with people (in a previous post you told me I should "learn something about..." and above you told someone to "read a newspaper") so I will do my best to explain that I read actual books, you know, the investigative ones, and the history ones, and so on, in addition to news, and I find multiple sources so that I can dig up the relevant information and piece together the most plausible scenario, because after having worked a year for a newspaper, I learned just how many errors there are in reporting.

So I will be happy to provide some source material for you. In the meantime, I ask you to do the same. I haven't seen that from you at all yet.

That said, the book "Static" by Amy & David Goodman, who are investigative reporters, goes into great detail on things that have occurred during the Bush administration that are criminal. They have used resources that include court documents from outside the United States filed by people who were kidnapped and tortured by the CIA, historical documents, news and magazine articles and interviews, and so on. Their documentation isn't quite as thorough as I'd like, but it's far better than newspapers alone.

If you read that, you won't have to ask what Bush and Company have done wrong. You may still believe that they're in the right, but at least you'll understand why others feel differently.

To directly address some of what you've said. We have been attacked in the last five years. The "payload" of those attacks may have been avoided, but according to the White House Fish, Bush manipulated supply and demand. His cabinet ignored the Geneva Convention. The U.S. was permitted to torture and kidnap. Now, I've noticed you like to use sarcasm with people (in a previous post you told me I should "learn something about..." and above you told someone to "read a newspaper") so I will do my best to explain that I read actual books, you know, the investigative ones, and the history ones, and so on, in addition to news, and I find multiple sources so that I can dig up the relevant information and piece together the most plausible scenario, because after having worked a year for a newspaper, I learned just how many errors there are in reporting.

So I will be happy to provide some source material for you. In the meantime, I ask you to do the same. I haven't seen that from you at all yet.

That said, the book "Static" by Amy & David Goodman, who are investigative reporters, goes into great detail on things that have occurred during the Bush administration that are criminal. They have used resources that include court documents from outside the United States filed by people who were kidnapped and tortured by the CIA, historical documents, news and magazine articles and interviews, and so on. Their documentation isn't quite as thorough as I'd like, but it's far better than newspapers alone.

If you read that, you won't have to ask what Bush and Company have done wrong. You may still believe that they're in the right, but at least you'll understand why others feel differently.

To directly address some of what you've said. We have been attacked in the last five years. The "payload" of those attacks may have been avoided, but according to the White House ten attacks were in process between 9/11 and October, 2005. http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2005&m=October&x=20051007130042adynned0.9633448 Although I'll admit, it's equally possible that the Bush press team has put out information like this to manipulate the public into thinking they are good leaders. But my question for anyone else is "How many al qaeda attacks and terrorist attacks did we face in the days before Bush?"

Ok, I'm done for now. I'll get off my soapbox.
Heck is where people go when they don't believe in Gosh.

Offline fish

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2007, 05:08:11 PM »
 How did W manipulate supply and demand? The futures market determines price on commodities such as oil,gas,etc.. Much of what determines price is based on fear and speculation. What happened when iran was making noise? The price of oil went up. What happened recently when a cyclone hit oman. The price of oil went up. It is a rediculous point to make that W manipulated supply and demand of oil. The insurgents,al queda, and other terrorists are not a uniformed military fighting for a country. they do not come under geneva convention protection. Are any of them fighting for iraq? No they are fighting for islam. We are the infidels. Ever hear of the 20 minute scenario? An airline  loaded with people and a nuclear bomb is flying to a city where it will crash. You have a person in custody that has info on where and when the plane will go. You have 20 minutes,what will you do to get the info you need to save lives? I don't have a problem with terrorists being tortured after 9/11.david pearl,nick berg,paul johnson, and the soldiers that were butchered after being captured. Does al queda and other terrorists abide by the geneva conventions?

Working at a newspaper you should be all too aware of the bias in the media. The media can't wait to report the 3500th us casualty but they say nothing about progress being made. I have given many sources of progress over time. Did those reporters use all evidence or just what they needed to prove THEIR point?

 semantics, there is a difference beteen attacks and attempted attacks. What buildings were destroyed here or people killed here since 9/11
How many attacks by al queda before W? The USS cole ring a bell? The twin  towers? What did bubba do?

Is W perfect? NO. but a poll taken after 9/11 showed a majority( including many democrats) were glad he was president instead of gore. W's press corp would not be able to hide an attemped attack.

Offline kbohon

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2007, 05:47:42 AM »
How did W manipulate supply and demand? The futures market determines price on commodities such as oil,gas,etc.. Much of what determines price is based on fear and speculation. What happened when iran was making noise? The price of oil went up. What happened recently when a cyclone hit oman. The price of oil went up. It is a rediculous point to make that W manipulated supply and demand of oil.

Bush has taken many steps to manipulate this. I can't say how directly our current prices are affected by his shennanigans, but the observations I've made about his actions (given his family's continued interest in that particular business) include the following: He reversed his decision about providing AIDS funding to Africa after major oil reserves were discovered there. He elected to go to war based on flimsy evidence in a country that has major oil (and after all, as you yourself said, he went to war against a COUNTRY, not a religion, despite the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks not being Saddam.) And he has directed huge dollars into finding alternative fuels, which is probably needed anyway, but eliminates a big burden from the oil companies who will be the beneficiary of developing those technologies.

The insurgents,al queda, and other terrorists are not a uniformed military fighting for a country. they do not come under geneva convention protection. Are any of them fighting for iraq? No they are fighting for islam. We are the infidels. Ever hear of the 20 minute scenario? An airline  loaded with people and a nuclear bomb is flying to a city where it will crash. You have a person in custody that has info on where and when the plane will go. You have 20 minutes,what will you do to get the info you need to save lives? I don't have a problem with terrorists being tortured after 9/11.david pearl,nick berg,paul johnson, and the soldiers that were butchered after being captured. Does al queda and other terrorists abide by the geneva conventions?

I agree that if there's an imminent danger that needs immediate action, drastic measures are sometimes justified. However, to do this merely because someone is from a certain country, and even though you have no actual knowledge of what they may or may not know (some of the people who have been tortured have no connection whatsoever with al qaeda) is crossing a line. When we are the author of the Geneva Convention, and have provided the "rules" of war, we should expect to set the example, too. Do we base our behavior on what others do? That gives them control instead of us being in control of ourselves.

Working at a newspaper you should be all too aware of the bias in the media. The media can't wait to report the 3500th us casualty but they say nothing about progress being made. I have given many sources of progress over time. Did those reporters use all evidence or just what they needed to prove THEIR point?

I am absolutely aware of the biases (another topic covered thoroughly in that book, Static.) And I am also aware of how tradeoffs work. I'll run or not run this article in exchange for you giving me something I want. Also, I am quite familiar with the way Cheney established press pools in order to control the media and ensure they only showed things that the U.S. government was willing to have shown, rather than having a free media as it was intended to be in the U.S. Constitution. (Was it you in another post saying that if the Constitution goes away, so do we?) In other words, our own Bush administration fails to uphold the Constitution whenever its principles don't coincide with their own agendas.

semantics, there is a difference beteen attacks and attempted attacks. What buildings were destroyed here or people killed here since 9/11
How many attacks by al queda before W? The USS cole ring a bell? The twin  towers? What did bubba do?

Those attacks took place before Bush was elected, yes. However, they did not take place before he was in the running for the presidency. (He announced in 1999.) Given his family's connections with the bin Laden family, it's not difficult to imagine some closed-door agreements leading to what we have seen take place: Instead of going directly after bin Laden and al qaeda, thus keeping on the target, we went to war with Iraq on fabricated evidence, and "lost" the focus on bin Laden. (There was a prior attack on the twin towers during Bush Sr's. last year in office.) The 9/11 attacks led to using the color alerts that may or may not have been used for manipulative purposes to ensure that the public continued to support Bush. I could get into a lot of information on this and the anthrax stuff, too, but I'll leave it at that. Maybe we'll go have a cup of coffee sometime and argue about it all, grin.

Is W perfect? NO. but a poll taken after 9/11 showed a majority( including many democrats) were glad he was president instead of gore. W's press corp would not be able to hide an attemped attack.

Maybe, maybe not. Most of that same majority regrets their decision now, by the way.
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Offline fish

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #63 on: June 26, 2007, 01:03:12 AM »
 W hasn't manipulated supply and demand unless you have facts, it doesn't hold water. ted kennedy has oil interests also. read the book"hypocrisy".

Bush Has Quietly Tripled Aid to Africa
"The president has tripled direct humanitarian and development aid to the world's most impoverished continent since taking office and recently vowed to double that increased amount by 2010 -- to nearly $9 billion."
http://digg.com/politics/Bush_Has_Quietly_Tripled_Aid_to_Africa_2

He went after saddam because he posed a threat to the US. How many un resolutions did he violate before we went to war? Read the comment by those that supported the war before they became cowards because it hasn't been settled overnight. If he manipulated info, the dems would have pounced on it.

How will big oil benefit from alternate energy discoveries?

we are better than the insurgents and terrorists because they are being afforded geneva convention protections when we don't have to give them.

Yes , I said if our constituition goes away so does our country. Where has W violated our constituition? There are checks and balances that have supported the patriot act and limited wiretaps. Again the dems would pounce and demand impeachment if he violated the constituition.

Whatever the Bush's connections are to the bin laden family obviously are not a problem. obl's family has cut off his money and don't support what he is doing. If there where close ties with obl tht affected W's response the dems would pounce and again demand impeachment. You can't condemn a family because of one person, although I don't believe the saudi's are our friends. obl is well protected,has been for a long time. Look at the area he is in,if he is alive.

The 1st bombing of the twin towers was feb 26 1993, bubba was in office.Bubba also viewed the twin tower attack as a law enforcement issue.

It is an election year coming up. Those that voted for the war had access to the same info as W. election and reelection campaigns affects principles.

It better be decaf ,lol

Offline kbohon

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2007, 03:15:49 AM »
W hasn't manipulated supply and demand unless you have facts, it doesn't hold water. ted kennedy has oil interests also. read the book"hypocrisy".

Bush Has Quietly Tripled Aid to Africa
"The president has tripled direct humanitarian and development aid to the world's most impoverished continent since taking office and recently vowed to double that increased amount by 2010 -- to nearly $9 billion."
http://digg.com/politics/Bush_Has_Quietly_Tripled_Aid_to_Africa_

Why do you suppose he's done this? Business leaders and politicians don't do things because they're just touchy feely nice guys and gals. For everything you read, fish, ask yourself why at least five times. Why would he do it? Because oil reserves were discovered (he'd first declined any support, and then only after this discovery did he turn around and pledge support.) Why would he provide AIDS support if oil was discovered? Because it will increase the odds of garnering favors when negotiating for oil. WHY would that be important? Because the U.S. has high demand for oil. WHY would he care about that? Because he and his family directly benefit a great deal from it. (Would you like to take bets about what kind of job he'll have after he leaves office?) And why is it ok to do this if it's not ok to spend that same money for socialized health care for people in this country, including immigrants legal and otherwise, if it's ok to spend billions on people in Africa?

He went after saddam because he posed a threat to the US. How many un resolutions did he violate before we went to war? Read the comment by those that supported the war before they became cowards because it hasn't been settled overnight. If he manipulated info, the dems would have pounced on it.

The Dems (and more than a few Republicans) DID pounce on it. I can't say how much responsibility I think is his, because I don't know how much of it was really his fault and how much wasn't, but the evidence is that the administration did have solid knowledge that the information was likely to be unreliable, yet used it to obtain support to attack Saddam immediately after 9/11, despite having NO evidence that Saddam was behind that. The Bush Administration used that incident to fuel hysteria and gain support for invasion of a country that, whoops! has lots of oil. Ask those why questions again. As I said in the last post, I don't want to get into all that here, but I'll buy you a cup of coffee sometime and we can duke it out there, lol. We can both bring our evidence, even.

How will big oil benefit from alternate energy discoveries?

Because companies that sell energy products sell energy products. As oil becomes less in demand and biofuels become more the norm, who do you think has the funding to create the infrastructures to deliver it? And who will benefit from it? And so on.

we are better than the insurgents and terrorists because they are being afforded geneva convention protections when we don't have to give them.

WHICH ones are being given those protections? Saddam? Yep, because he's highly visible. But the nameless, faceless ones in the masks lying bloody on the floor of Guatanamo? That's laughable.

Yes , I said if our constituition goes away so does our country. Where has W violated our constituition? There are checks and balances that have supported the patriot act and limited wiretaps. Again the dems would pounce and demand impeachment if he violated the constituition.

Another one I could go on and on about, but I won't. So.... just a single for instance that happened here in Missouri. A professor at Mizzou in Columbia led a class discussion in which he asked students to compare and discuss similarities between Bush and Hitler. He was arrested. What happened to his freedom of speech? He was not urging the students to overthrow the government, after all.

Whatever the Bush's connections are to the bin laden family obviously are not a problem. obl's family has cut off his money and don't support what he is doing. If there where close ties with obl tht affected W's response the dems would pounce and again demand impeachment. You can't condemn a family because of one person, although I don't believe the saudi's are our friends. obl is well protected,has been for a long time. Look at the area he is in,if he is alive.

Define "obviously" not a problem. We really should have that cup of coffee. The bin Laden family not only was involved with the Carlysle Group, but also purchased the Michigan Biologics Products Institute (read on Fuad al Hibri) about a month before the DoD announced that all soldiers would receive the anthrax vaccine. (Guess who manufactured it and got that HUGE contract, which was DOUBLED just months later despite numerous problems with the vaccine and the lack of evidence at the time that it would benefit anyone exposed to airborne anthrax?) WAY too long to get into that one, though. Please read up on it. Seriously.

The 1st bombing of the twin towers was feb 26 1993, bubba was in office.Bubba also viewed the twin tower attack as a law enforcement issue.

It is an election year coming up. Those that voted for the war had access to the same info as W. election and reelection campaigns affects principles.

Do you really think that a senator from Wyoming has as much info as the President? Not a chance.

It better be decaf ,lol

You sure? We could probably have a LLLOOOONNNNNGGGG debate here, lol.
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Offline fish

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #65 on: June 27, 2007, 12:31:18 AM »
 to much emphasis on conspiracy theories. I don't spend to much time analyzing the why. the results tell the story. no one else is helping those in africa,it always falls to us. Maybe the neglect in the past was because africa had nothing to offer? I will give W the benefit of the doubt and believe he has benevelent reasons for giving aid  to africa.

W said saddam was not behind 9/11. but saddam posed a threat to us and the region. he also supported suicide bombings by giving the families of the bombers $25k. He hasd an agreement with obl that they did not support each other but they did support their actions against the us. W used the un resolutions that saddam repeatedly violated to justify the invasion.Violating those resolutions called for a military response. The oil issue was in reference in keeping the world's oil supply safe.

No other fuel will be produced in suffiecient quantities to need an infrastructure the oil industry has. Tanker trucks are readily available for transport. Oil will not be replaced,these alternate fuels depend on something in order to be produced. Corn-ethanol,used oil/grease - biodiesel,. Oil only has to be found and pumped . I would like to see an increase in rubber tires being used more in coal fired power plants, along with an increase in nuclear power plants.
Saddam doesn't get those protections anymore. the gitmo bunch does. Where are the bloody masks? The prisoners at abu graib wanted the us back after the iraqi's took over. wonder why?

Again, what the bin laden family does, does not reflect what obl's objectives are.

Yes, a senator from wyoming will have the same access to the same info as W had. The senate intelligence committee. did. Sen Jane Harmon (D-ca) is a big supporter of the war. it cost her a committee post even though she is the ranking and most qualified for that job. She saw the evidence that W saw as did many others.

Offline kbohon

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #66 on: June 28, 2007, 09:17:43 AM »
You say too much emphasis on conspiracy theories, I say too much blind faith on your side. Just because we don't get the information shoved down our throats on the media doesn't mean an intelligent person can't deduce what's NOT being said. Forming opinions based on the news is scarily incomplete. Think about this for a moment... We all remember Jeffrey Dahmer, right? The story of his serial killings and cannibalism was all over the news, to such a degree that he became a household name. But do you REALLY know anything about him based on those reports? Do you know the details of the crimes the way the detectives and prosecutor did? Not a chance. Even if you read a book or two, the story's still woefully incomplete, right? How do you think politics is any different? ESPECIALLY when it involves matters of national security?

That's my response to your first three paragraphs. To the fourth, I will say that even the Senate Intel Committee gets less information than is available. The President is briefed first on anything that could be critical to either his or the country's best interests. And if he doesn't want something passed along, there is a reasonable chance that it won't be.
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Offline fish

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2007, 01:03:41 AM »
We will never know all the details of a presidency. What deals were made with who. But the actions can speak a lot more. W has tried to expand production of oil. We don't know his holdings as they are all in a blind trust. But expanding the domestic supply and reducing foreign imports is a smart move.

If there was a hint of anything the dems could use against W, it would have been done.

 someone has to give him the info. Someone  or more than one person will know as much as he does. The senate intelligence committee will get a high level of info. How much? We don't know and that leads to speculating that info was manipulated. But there is no proof.Or else it would have been pounced on by the dems.

There was no shortage of coverage on the news before the war what saddam was doing or not doing. We aren't totally in the dark. We were all very well informed on the middle east.

If there was enough to impeach anyone it would have been done. But the biggest fear the dems have is cheney. He knows how to deal with the dems and they don't want to deal with him. Impeachment would not result in dem control of the white house, that's also why it didn't get persued. Rumsfeld was good in his day, but he fizzled and W should have accepted his resignation when he first offered it.

Offline kbohon

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2007, 03:26:12 AM »
We will never know all the details of a presidency. What deals were made with who. But the actions can speak a lot more. W has tried to expand production of oil. We don't know his holdings as they are all in a blind trust. But expanding the domestic supply and reducing foreign imports is a smart move.

If there was a hint of anything the dems could use against W, it would have been done.

 someone has to give him the info. Someone  or more than one person will know as much as he does. The senate intelligence committee will get a high level of info. How much? We don't know and that leads to speculating that info was manipulated. But there is no proof.Or else it would have been pounced on by the dems.

There was no shortage of coverage on the news before the war what saddam was doing or not doing. We aren't totally in the dark. We were all very well informed on the middle east.

If there was enough to impeach anyone it would have been done. But the biggest fear the dems have is cheney. He knows how to deal with the dems and they don't want to deal with him. Impeachment would not result in dem control of the white house, that's also why it didn't get persued. Rumsfeld was good in his day, but he fizzled and W should have accepted his resignation when he first offered it.

You're right. We won't know until long after the fact. The problem is too many people fail to look beyond the obvious and ask "what would contribute to this particular set of actions?"

And yep, Cheney's the reason. The Dems have pounced on plenty, which is how the Republicans got ousted in the midterm elections. So that's not exactly proof of Bush's administration being good.
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Offline fish

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #69 on: June 30, 2007, 01:21:10 AM »
 the republicans caved on conservative principles. that is why they lost. the dems ran as conservatives.not much was said on the war,the economy,taxes,etc.

Other than an unpopular war, how has W's administration not done so well? Unemployment is down(still),interest rates are down(still),taxes have been lowered, the economy is strong(still),We haven't been attacked since 9/11. This is all redundant, but true. Not that there isn't still work to be done,but the state of W's administration's success has not been reported by the media(which has a bias) and W isn't into self promotion.

Offline kbohon

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #70 on: June 30, 2007, 01:41:46 AM »
I would disagree with many of the things you've said. I don't see the economy as doing well. Taxes haven't been lowered, we just got rebates that will be charged back to us later. The deficit has grown to enormous levels. He's appointed several people to important cabinet positions who ultimately reveal themselves incompetent for the job due to inexperience. The American public has less trust than ever in our political system, influenced by both the Florida vote debacle and the war. I could go on, but why? We'll just have to agree to disagree, right?
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Offline fish

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2007, 01:50:43 AM »
don't excuse an ineffective democrat congress.
 I made more last year and paid less. taxes were lowered for those that pay taxes. The dems are the ones that have problems with the florida vote.
Other than brown,who has revealed themselves as incompetent? Remember fema is not a first response organization, and there is nothing that could hellp the people of NO after years of corruption in their own state.
 deficits come and go.it is lower depending on which table you look at. But I do think federal spending needs to be curbed on a lot of things,beginning with foreign aid.

Offline kbohon

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #72 on: July 01, 2007, 12:26:45 AM »
I was saying that in response to your statements, which I believe are more opinion-based than factual. I was not trying to excuse a Democratic congress OR to blame Republicans. I think both sides have valid points, and both are doing what they believe in. It's the interactions between them that gum up the works. Believe it or not, I don't consider myself a member of either of these parties (though I did register as Dem to get mailings rather than be completely left out, lol.)
Heck is where people go when they don't believe in Gosh.

Offline fish

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #73 on: July 01, 2007, 02:48:49 PM »
what is happening in the senate is the republican minority is more powerful than the democrat majority. this happened when the tables were turned before the elections. the dems filibustered and not much was accomplished. the gop is now doing the same and the dems don't like it.  It will be a rare occurence if anything gets done before the election next year.

Offline kbohon

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Re: Dick Cheney
« Reply #74 on: July 01, 2007, 08:55:56 PM »
Yeah, that's what I mean by the interactions between them. To me, it all just sounds like a bad marriage.
Heck is where people go when they don't believe in Gosh.