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Author Topic: what was the cost of their freedom?  (Read 5056 times)

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Offline fish

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what was the cost of their freedom?
« on: August 05, 2009, 01:41:49 AM »

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 N Korea Releases Jailed US Journalists
 
North Korea has released two US journalists sentenced to 12 years hard labour following a surprise visit by Bill Clinton.
It came after the former US President met Laura Ling and Euna Lee in what was described as a "very emotional" meeting.
Pentagon sources say the pair - arrested while reporting on refugees fleeing the impoverished North - are flying back on his private plane.
During his visit, Mr Clinton met North Korean leader Kim Jong Il, who agreed to grant them a "special pardon".
According to North Korean media, the U-turn came after Mr Clinton "expressed words of sincere apology" for their behaviour.
The state-run Korean Central News Agency said Mr Clinton had "courteously" passed a verbal message to Jong Il from President Obama.
The North Korean leader then expressed his thanks and the two shared a "wide-ranging exchange of views".
But the White House insisted Mr Clinton did not carry a message from Mr Obama, and stressed it was a private visit.
Ling and Lee have been held in Pyongyang since March.
In June, a court sentenced them to "reform through labour" for illegal entry and an unspecified "grave crime".
Official media said Ling, 32, and Lee, 36, had admitted to a politically-motivated smear campaign.
The pair work for California-based Current TV, which was co-founded by Mr Clinton's vice president Al Gore.
The official media said they crossed the border illegally "for the purpose of making animation files to be used for an anti-DPRK (North Korea) smear campaign over its human rights issue".
In a statement, their families said they were "overjoyed" at the news of their release.
"We must thank all the people who have supported our families through this ordeal, it has meant the world to us.
"We are counting the seconds to hold Laura and Euna in our arms."
Mr Clinton's visit came at a time of heightened tension between the US and its allies and North Korea.
The communist regime's country's nuclear and missile tests have been condemned by Western states who insist they breached United Nations sanctions.
Mr Clinton is the highest profile American to visit North Korea since his own secretary of state Madeleine Albright in 2000.
 
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Bill-Clinton-Meets-North-Koreas-Kim-Jong-Il-And-Two-US-Journalists-Laura-Ling-And-Euna-Lee/Article/200908115353424?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15353424_Bill_Clinton_Meets_North_Koreas_Kim_Jong-

Offline tpgunbiz

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2009, 07:38:40 AM »
Hopefully the lack of an asswhoopin from the United States. Kim Jong Ill is a seriously ill bastard with nothing to loose so him letting go some folks who could be labled as traitors ....or worse yet ...terrorists in his country.he had to have recieved some really good info on how we plan to wipe out his existance. Bill Clinton was the man for the job. Has anyone seen the list of people working for Bill that disappeared or died while he was in office? do I care.....hell no he got Things done.
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Offline fish

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2009, 12:58:19 PM »
if it involves picking up chicks,bubba's the right guy. the deal was made before he left for nkorea I think.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2009, 01:28:11 PM »
I am not going to be unkind about Clinton on this.  He was asked to do a job and he got it done.  Happy for the two women being able to get out of NK.  I certainly don't suspect any dirty ulterior motives in this.  When he applies himself, Clinton does know how to get it done.

Offline Coyote

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2009, 02:37:34 PM »
Who asked him to do it?

I am not going to be unkind about Clinton on this.  He was asked to do a job and he got it done.  Happy for the two women being able to get out of NK.  I certainly don't suspect any dirty ulterior motives in this.  When he applies himself, Clinton does know how to get it done.
....and that night as the moon crossed the mountain, one more Coyote was heard...

Offline matrsnot

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2009, 02:56:23 PM »
Can only guess it was Obama.  Clinton did the job Obama could not have done.  Obama has neither the experience nor the expertise to negotiate.

Offline igahmah at work

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2009, 03:18:34 PM »
As someone else said, I'll bet the deal was done before Clinton left the US.  Might have been Hillary that bartered to get them free.  Bill just went to seal the deal and put a big name on the story.  Whoever did it, I'm glad they are free and hope they do not put themselves in harms way again.  As for as the bartering, as the title of this thread says "what is the cost of their freedom?"  That is yet to be seen.
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Offline matrsnot

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2009, 04:48:41 PM »
Since Obama is already offering blueprints to the B2 Bomber to China, he may as well give it to NK too.  May as well committ to total lack of defense for this country.

Offline Racer

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2009, 06:01:09 PM »
Since Obama is already offering blueprints to the B2 Bomber to China, he may as well give it to NK too.  May as well committ to total lack of defense for this country.

Can you prove this statement or is it BS?  Will Rep Day back this up?

Offline What_The?

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2009, 06:33:13 PM »
America needs more of this type of action by Obama and Clinton, after 8 years of:





The "Mission Accomplished" sign, of course, was put up by the members of the USS Abraham Lincoln, saying that their mission was accomplished. I know it was attributed some how to some ingenious advance man from my staff -- they weren't that ingenious, by the way.



"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline matrsnot

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Offline Racer

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2009, 08:02:18 PM »
http://pulaskicountyweb.com/smf/index.php?topic=18268.0

Matrsnot,
 
I thought I would be directed to a website of some sort but I went to it anyway.  "InvestmentWatch" still does not convince me that your statement has merit  I did read your suggested site out of respect.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2009, 08:53:34 PM »
Hope this assists some. 
 
 
Record deficits and a crashing economy appear to be taking a toll on the young Barack Obama Administration. The Administration has been talking about hiking income taxes and perhaps instituting a VAT tax.

China is also concerned with the mounting deficits in the United States budget. China is the single biggest holder of US Treasury Bonds and is one of Washington’s biggest trading partners. The People’s Republic has had a burgeoning economy, but is increasingly wary of the falling US dollar.

While the exact amount of Chinese ownership of US treasuries is unknown, it is estimated to add up to over a trillion dollars. If China were to call in US guarantees on these bonds, economists fear it could lead to an economic collapse larger than the Great Depression.

China has recently expanded its defense budget, ostensibly to keep up with its economic growth. China is reportedly working on its own version of a stealth bomber (the US has the only functioning model) but is lagged by technological defects.

On April 1st, President Obama spoke to Chinese Premier Hu Jintao during the G20 Summit. During this meeting, Mr. Hu expressed interest in writing off some of the US debt in exchange for military technology. The President has since referred the matter to Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

The Defense Department is reportedly furious with the President’s proposal to sell blueprints of the B-2 Spirit stealth bomber to the People’s Republic. Gates has flatly rejected the President’s plan, but has since been asked to step down if he will not facilitate the process.

According to the deal, the United States would sell the plans for the B-2, along with radar-absorbing paints and metals in exchange for $50 billion in debt relief. The B-2 cost the US government $23 billion to develop the bomber in the 1980s.

According to the Administration, this proposal will help the United States resolve its debt issues. They point out their belief that the B-2 bomber is “strategically obsolete”, according to a source in the White House Press Office.
In addition, the source claims that the Chinese would be unable to create their own functioning stealth bomber fleet for “at least eight years.”

American allies Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea are very wary of the proposal. Koo Syi, a geopolitical analyst from South Korea, points out that this technology could be passed to China’s allies. This was the case when Chinese nuclear technology was transferred to Pakistan and North Korea. According to Koo, Obama has rendered US allies’ opinions as “irrelevant.”

While this proposal is controversial, it is not being presented to Congress, where it could meet with stern opposition. Instead, the State Department has been informed to assisted the Defense Department with the transfer of materials.

http://turnerradionetwork.blogspot.com/2009/06/obama-sell-b-2-bomber-blueprints-to.html


Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2009, 09:13:16 PM »
if it involves picking up chicks,bubba's the right guy. the deal was made before he left for nkorea I think.

As some of you may know, the Pulaski County Daily News has a streaming video feed for a number of news outlets on the right-end toolbar. I watched (online) the televised comments by Ms. Ling with Clinton and Gore standing behind her. I may be wrong, but I think Ling turned to hug Bill Clinton at one point and then, perhaps realizing what it would look like, stopped in mid-turn and just thanked him verbally.

I am not going to be unkind about Clinton on this.  He was asked to do a job and he got it done.  Happy for the two women being able to get out of NK.  I certainly don't suspect any dirty ulterior motives in this.  When he applies himself, Clinton does know how to get it done.

I've been following the news on this for some time and I know more than a little bit about the Korean way of handling these sorts of things. Fish is right that the deal was apparently done before Clinton set foot on the plane for North Korea. So why was he involved? For the key work to get done behind the scenes and then put a top-level name on the deal was probably essential for a list of reasons that aren't worth explaining here -- both to make it happen and to save face if it didn't happen.

Since that name absolutely could not be Barack Obama or anyone in his cabinet, and since the reporters had been working for Al Gore's media operation, Clinton was both a logical and a good choice.

This way, Barack Obama can claim, in accord with American foreign policy objectives, that this had nothing to do with official government decisions. Bill Clinton can claim, legitimately, that his only role was helping out his old friend Al Gore in a private capacity when his two employees were captured by the North Koreans. And on the other hand, the North Koreans get their photo op of the former President of the United States respectfully shaking hands with top North Korean powerbrokers on an equal footing. Symbolic things like that are important to Asians in ways I don't think many Americans even begin to comprehend.

Symbolism is important domestically for North Koreans, but it isn't to us. How with this affect America?

We may never find out what happened behind the scenes. In a best-case scenario, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton and Bill Richardson (who has longstanding ties with the North Korean leaders) explained clearly and privately that America could not make any concessions formally and officially to kidnappers and terrorist states, but that a new president meant what he said about a new direction, so please give time for him to show good faith. In other words, accept the velvet glove and we'll discuss things fairly with you, because if you don't cooperate, you'll get hit by a set of brass knuckles instead because Barack Obama has no choice domestically and cannot be seen as weak.

There are also much less rosy scenarios. The Wall Street Journal had an article in today asking the same question as this thread -- what was the price of their release?

We probably won't know for a long time, and may never know. All we can really do is hope for the best.

And let's be fair -- there is some reason for that hope. As much dislike as I have for Bill and Hillary Clinton and their domestic policies, I have to agree -- reluctantly -- that they mean what they say about human rights and understand geopolitics in ways Barack Obama does not seem to understand. Hillary Clinton was right when she called him naive.
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Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2009, 09:30:34 PM »
Selling B-2 technology to China? WTF??????!!!!!!!

If I write what I really feel about this, I'll have a dozen phone calls asking if I am having a bad day and Rick will have to censor my words since they are beyond unprintable.

This is flat out beyond belief. While we're at it, why don't we just turn Whiteman Air Force Base over to the Chinese and let it train them in how to use the B-2 stealth bomber to intimidate all their enemies (and our friends) all over Asia?

China is the one and only potential peer-to-peer threat we face in the modern world. Unlike President Obama, they've figured out that socialism doesn't work, and they've got the engine of a semi-capitalist economy to power a massive military buildup. Right now they probably won't be a major threat to America for another decade or two, but handing them stealth technology would be a "great leap forward" in their capabilities.

I have faith in the power of capitalism, long-term, to make tremendous changes in a political system. But short term, the Chinese aren't anywhere near becoming a democratic state, and the last time we had a fascist state dominating Asia with advanced military technology, we saw Japan defeat the Russian Empire in the Pacific, then decimate China, then knock the American fleet virtually out of commission at Pearl Harbor, then get almost all the way to Australia in its island hopping campaign, and ran out of steam mostly because of the defeat of Hitler and the lack of oil and gas. One thing China doesn't have to worry about is lack of natural resources, and the last thing we need is another Tokyo-style expansionist military state in Asia.


Hope this assists some. 
 
 
Record deficits and a crashing economy appear to be taking a toll on the young Barack Obama Administration. The Administration has been talking about hiking income taxes and perhaps instituting a VAT tax.

China is also concerned with the mounting deficits in the United States budget. China is the single biggest holder of US Treasury Bonds and is one of Washington’s biggest trading partners. The People’s Republic has had a burgeoning economy, but is increasingly wary of the falling US dollar.

While the exact amount of Chinese ownership of US treasuries is unknown, it is estimated to add up to over a trillion dollars. If China were to call in US guarantees on these bonds, economists fear it could lead to an economic collapse larger than the Great Depression.

China has recently expanded its defense budget, ostensibly to keep up with its economic growth. China is reportedly working on its own version of a stealth bomber (the US has the only functioning model) but is lagged by technological defects.

On April 1st, President Obama spoke to Chinese Premier Hu Jintao during the G20 Summit. During this meeting, Mr. Hu expressed interest in writing off some of the US debt in exchange for military technology. The President has since referred the matter to Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

The Defense Department is reportedly furious with the President’s proposal to sell blueprints of the B-2 Spirit stealth bomber to the People’s Republic. Gates has flatly rejected the President’s plan, but has since been asked to step down if he will not facilitate the process.

According to the deal, the United States would sell the plans for the B-2, along with radar-absorbing paints and metals in exchange for $50 billion in debt relief. The B-2 cost the US government $23 billion to develop the bomber in the 1980s.

According to the Administration, this proposal will help the United States resolve its debt issues. They point out their belief that the B-2 bomber is “strategically obsolete”, according to a source in the White House Press Office.
In addition, the source claims that the Chinese would be unable to create their own functioning stealth bomber fleet for “at least eight years.”

American allies Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea are very wary of the proposal. Koo Syi, a geopolitical analyst from South Korea, points out that this technology could be passed to China’s allies. This was the case when Chinese nuclear technology was transferred to Pakistan and North Korea. According to Koo, Obama has rendered US allies’ opinions as “irrelevant.”

While this proposal is controversial, it is not being presented to Congress, where it could meet with stern opposition. Instead, the State Department has been informed to assisted the Defense Department with the transfer of materials.

http://turnerradionetwork.blogspot.com/2009/06/obama-sell-b-2-bomber-blueprints-to.html


Darrell Todd Maurina
Check out the Pulaski County Daily News online newspaper at
http://www.pulaskicountyweb.com
Cell: (573) 433.6733 * FAX: (573) 774-2349
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Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2009, 09:39:37 PM »
That whole event WAS pretty cheesy... LOL.

America needs more of this type of action by Obama and Clinton, after 8 years of:





The "Mission Accomplished" sign, of course, was put up by the members of the USS Abraham Lincoln, saying that their mission was accomplished. I know it was attributed some how to some ingenious advance man from my staff -- they weren't that ingenious, by the way.





Offline What_The?

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"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline What_The?

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2009, 10:00:30 PM »
Hope this assists some. 
 
 
Record deficits and a crashing economy appear to be taking a toll on the young Barack Obama Administration. The Administration has been talking about hiking income taxes and perhaps instituting a VAT tax.

China is also concerned with the mounting deficits in the United States budget. China is the single biggest holder of US Treasury Bonds and is one of Washington’s biggest trading partners. The People’s Republic has had a burgeoning economy, but is increasingly wary of the falling US dollar.

While the exact amount of Chinese ownership of US treasuries is unknown, it is estimated to add up to over a trillion dollars. If China were to call in US guarantees on these bonds, economists fear it could lead to an economic collapse larger than the Great Depression.

China has recently expanded its defense budget, ostensibly to keep up with its economic growth. China is reportedly working on its own version of a stealth bomber (the US has the only functioning model) but is lagged by technological defects.

On April 1st, President Obama spoke to Chinese Premier Hu Jintao during the G20 Summit. During this meeting, Mr. Hu expressed interest in writing off some of the US debt in exchange for military technology. The President has since referred the matter to Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

The Defense Department is reportedly furious with the President’s proposal to sell blueprints of the B-2 Spirit stealth bomber to the People’s Republic. Gates has flatly rejected the President’s plan, but has since been asked to step down if he will not facilitate the process.

According to the deal, the United States would sell the plans for the B-2, along with radar-absorbing paints and metals in exchange for $50 billion in debt relief. The B-2 cost the US government $23 billion to develop the bomber in the 1980s.

According to the Administration, this proposal will help the United States resolve its debt issues. They point out their belief that the B-2 bomber is “strategically obsolete”, according to a source in the White House Press Office.
In addition, the source claims that the Chinese would be unable to create their own functioning stealth bomber fleet for “at least eight years.”

American allies Taiwan, Japan, and South Korea are very wary of the proposal. Koo Syi, a geopolitical analyst from South Korea, points out that this technology could be passed to China’s allies. This was the case when Chinese nuclear technology was transferred to Pakistan and North Korea. According to Koo, Obama has rendered US allies’ opinions as “irrelevant.”

While this proposal is controversial, it is not being presented to Congress, where it could meet with stern opposition. Instead, the State Department has been informed to assisted the Defense Department with the transfer of materials.

http://turnerradionetwork.blogspot.com/2009/06/obama-sell-b-2-bomber-blueprints-to.html














"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline okie the thread killer

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2009, 10:57:44 PM »
okay, what is the dude in the last pic doing? got me lost on that one. other than that, thumbs up
I have it on good authority that the Hokey-Pokey really IS what it's all about.

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2009, 11:23:47 PM »
okay, what is the dude in the last pic doing? got me lost on that one. other than that, thumbs up

 
Hmmmmm________ maybe the last photo is a self portrait of winston/what_the?
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Offline okie the thread killer

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2009, 11:38:02 PM »
I really did think he looked familiar
I have it on good authority that the Hokey-Pokey really IS what it's all about.

Offline fish

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2009, 01:03:45 AM »
let's see, nobama sent bubba to nkorea to do what he(nobama)couldn't. we have russian subs patrolling the east coast. n korea has had how many missle launches? the generals in afghanistan want more people, barely makes the news. nobama has not passed a test yet!

Offline tpgunbiz

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2009, 08:41:17 AM »
What_the Is Winston? Aw hell. I should have known.
Biscuit

Offline matrsnot

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2009, 12:41:37 PM »
And Snopes is not infallible.  Keep that in mind.  That would be like Snopes saying Winston is a Bush Lover.

Offline What_The?

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2009, 02:58:00 PM »
And Snopes is not infallible.  Keep that in mind.  That would be like Snopes saying Winston is a Bush Lover.

Prove it.

Prove one instance where your e-mail talking points that I've shown to be untrue using snopes is WRONG.

Prove one of those emails is true.

Any of them.

They source everything.

You live by lies told you through email talking points.

So prove it big shot.

You keep running your mouth about how snopes is some liberal website that lies, PROVE IT or SHUT THE HELL UP.

TIme to put up or shut up.

Prove ONE single thing that is disproved on snopes is WRONG.

ONE.

THING.


"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline fish

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2009, 12:28:03 AM »
no more google?

Offline matrsnot

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2009, 12:46:43 AM »
I have a different finger to present.  I won't though.  I will take the high road this time. :angel:

Offline What_The?

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2009, 08:01:29 PM »
I have a different finger to present.  I won't though.  I will take the high road this time. :angel:

Still waiting, Mr. Bigshot.

One thing.

Prove ANY of your LIES disproved by SNOPES is wrong.

One thing.

Any of them, there's plenty to choose from, since you spread so many obvious lies.

Go, show the world why anyone should believe you over Snopes.

Hell, I'll go even one better.

You prove Snopes wrong on ANYTHING that I've posted proving YOU wrong from Snopes, and I'll leave the board FOREVER.

Go ahead, ANY ONE SINGLE THING, Mr. "Snopes is not the end all or be all, they make mistakes, they made them about Bush."

ONE THING.

Oh, and here you big wimp:

ONE THING:



"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline What_The?

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2009, 08:04:35 PM »
let's see, nobama sent bubba to nkorea to do what he(nobama)couldn't. we have russian subs patrolling the east coast. n korea has had how many missle launches? the generals in afghanistan want more people, barely makes the news. nobama has not passed a test yet!

Sounds like Bush really f**ked up, and Obama has a ton of shit to clean up.

Exactly what was said when Bush wasted all of that time, all of those lives, in Iraq.

"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: what was the cost of their freedom?
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2009, 08:10:38 PM »
What-The and Matrsnot and others:
 
We're not a St. Louis town hall meeting. What-The is not a union goon, and Matrnsnot is not a planted protestor.
 
So can we turn down the volume level a little bit?
 
I also get angry at some things I read on the Pulaski County Web. Usually I remember to go upstairs, kiss my wife, read a chapter of a book, or do something else to calm down before I get back on my keyboard. I wouldn't be very happy with what comes out of my fingers if I didn't use those tactics.
Darrell Todd Maurina
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