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Author Topic: Time to start all over.....  (Read 4118 times)

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Offline Seeg

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Time to start all over.....
« on: November 07, 2009, 07:47:47 PM »

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http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2009/11/congressmen-lose-big-bucks-in.html

"... with 237 millionaires still serving in Congress, most of the nation's leaders are doing fine compared to many of their constituents living paycheck by paycheck, if they're earning a paycheck at all.
About 1 percent of all Americans are considered millionaires, while more than 44 percent of congressional members claim that distinction. And 50 members of Congress boast estimated wealth of at least $10 million.
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline Just_a_Biker

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2009, 09:23:44 PM »
So much for being "...of The People..."

We've known for a long time that they're not "For The People" anymore.
The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. Cicero - 55 BC, Rome

Offline Seeg

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2009, 10:00:49 PM »
So much for being "...of The People..."

We've known for a long time that they're not "For The People" anymore.
Too funny.... I' almost titled this thread as "So much for being ...of The People..."
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline fish

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2009, 01:14:27 AM »
and also limit their terms. I believe the voters will limit the terms they serve, but there should also be an age limit. once they are eligible for ss,they go. strom thurmond was 100 ,byrd is 90. they are incapable of alert service and were/are allowed to stay to keep the majority. both sides do it. over 1/3 of the senate is over 65,including the pos pelosi and reid.

Offline Racer

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2009, 01:45:41 AM »
and also limit their terms. I believe the voters will limit the terms they serve, but there should also be an age limit. once they are eligible for ss,they go. strom thurmond was 100 ,byrd is 90. they are incapable of alert service and were/are allowed to stay to keep the majority. both sides do it. over 1/3 of the senate is over 65,including the pos pelosi and reid.

Dang Fish, you also hate old people..  In your words LOL LOL

Offline ♥♣ ~Maynard~♣♥

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2009, 02:19:30 AM »

Dang Fish, you also hate old people..  In your words LOL LOL
Only old politicans ;D
Remember I'm a nudist so when you respond to one of my post yor talking to a naked man  :)


For entertainment purposes only. Any resemblance to real persons living or dead is purely coincidental.

Offline fish

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2009, 02:07:49 AM »
racer is unable to comprehend simple statements. as usual!LOL LOL

Offline Racer

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2009, 03:21:44 AM »
racer is unable to comprehend simple statements. as usual!LOL LOL

LOL LOL is pretty simple to comprehend Fish.  It's the most intellegent thing you ever post.   :wink1a: ;D

Offline fish

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2009, 05:17:18 PM »
case in point

Offline Chas

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2009, 06:02:11 PM »
I agree with term limits. It the sheeple that keep voting the old goats into office.   But because someone is over 65 is no reason to keep them from office. Besides who else has the time to sit around and do nothing? Well ok people like us playing on the web. Term limits would be a good thing but it seems like every time a politician says they are for term limits, they mean term limits for the other guy.

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2009, 04:55:18 AM »
and also limit their terms. I believe the voters will limit the terms they serve, but there should also be an age limit. once they are eligible for ss,they go. strom thurmond was 100 ,byrd is 90. they are incapable of alert service and were/are allowed to stay to keep the majority. both sides do it. over 1/3 of the senate is over 65,including the pos pelosi and reid.

I remember reading a Time Magazine article back in 1976 stating quite firmly that Ronald Reagan would be too old to be a serious candidate for president in 1980. That author could never have conceived of John McCain running for office, and probably could not have considered Nancy Pelosi being a viable Democratic candidate for Speaker of the House in a party that back in 1976 was promoting itself as the party of the youth and the future.

Definitions of "too old" change dramatically from generation to generation.

As far as I'm concerned, putting limits on the voters' ability to select who they want is a mistake, whether that means term limits, age limits, or any other limit of that sort.

If voters want to elect an idiot for 20 consecutive terms, that's their right in a democratic system of government. We interfere with that right at our peril.
Darrell Todd Maurina
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Offline Seeg

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2009, 06:03:06 AM »
DTM, the point of my thread was to point out that we're aren't a government "for and of" the people anymore.  Do I think someone should be too old to run for office? No!  But I don't think someone should be too poor to run either and that is exactly where our current system has led us.

On another note, I personally don't believe SCOTUS judges should be appointed for life either.
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline David Day

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2009, 11:50:03 AM »
We have term limits in Missouri as most of you know and while it does solve the problem of someone being in office for 30+ years that some don't care for, please don't think that limit of terms solves all the problems.  It actually creates a whole new set of problems...and those problems are more out of the control of the voters than how many terms someone serves.

If you like term limits don't get me wrong, I am not trying to change any minds, I am just saying that it does open a whole new can of worms and in DC that can would be much bigger, much worse than at the state level.

I have never engaged in the term limit argument because no matter what I say I will be viewed by someone to be self-serving.  Either I don't want them so I can serve longer or I do want them so everyone else is limited just like I was.  My personal feeling is, the voters put term limits in place...if it is to be changed it needs to be by the voters, not the legislature as some have asked us to.  There is a growing movement in MO to do away with the limits because of the problems it has brought on.  Again, in my mind that is up to the voters, not the legislature.

JMO,
Dave

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Offline fish

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2009, 07:59:49 PM »
Reagan wasn't a member of congress longer than some of us have been around either. the presidential election is a whole different deal than congress.
the term limits don't solve all the problems and an age limit would not also solve the problems, but those two things may open the field of candidates a little wider. should multi miillionaires be members of congress? how much influence is involved? How many potential candidates are shut out of running because of the cost of a campaign? this government stopped being a government of the people a long time ago. perhaps new limits would help change that?

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2009, 03:19:40 PM »
Guys, I have neither the time nor the interest to get into this matter in any great detail right now.
 
A few points will have to suffice:
 
Yes, it takes millions of dollars to run a credible campaign for most federal positions, even in rural states for Congressional seats. The same is true for state races in urban areas, and right here in Pulaski County we saw a county race recently where total expenditures between the candidates topped $40,000.
 
However, with the advent of direct campaign fundraising, raising that kind of money is actually tremendously easier to do now than raising the comparable amount of money was fifty years ago.
 
And back then, massive money was **NOT** enough to get elected -- those were the days of backroom political machines when even the wealthiest men in Chicago had to kowtow before Mayor Daley to get what they wanted, because he had the ability to mobilize huge numbers of municipal patronage workers and union members and rank-and-file Democrats through the precinct captains to vote people out no matter how much money they had. That's not a slam on the Democrats; the Republican political machines had been just as corrupt, though most of the Republican machines died after World War II as Republican voters left urban neighborhoods for the suburbs.
 
It is a pure myth that in the "good old days," poor "average Joes" were routinely elected to high office. Men like George Washington were among the wealthiest men of their generation in the entire continent. Yes, it's true that very rural and very poor states did sometimes elect "Coonskin Congressmen," but men like Daniel Boone were the elite of their frontier societies and were respected by their fellow voters for their raw courage and success in frontier life, just as much as Massachussetts voters respected shipping magnates and Virginia voters respected owners of large and successful plantations, and sent men like them to Congress. All that shows is that different groups of voters will value different things and therefore elect different types of people, and in a democracy, that's a good thing.
 
What **IS** true is that in American democracy, men could be born very poor, work their tails off, and either earn enough money to become political powerbrokers or earn enough community influence through various types of methods to develop political power without lots of money. That did not always lead to good results; on the contrary, it led to back-room powerbrokering and political machinations that were the center of the old machine system of politics.
 
Personally, I would much rather have candidates appealing directly to the voters who then elect whoever they want, rather than having to navigate a backroom political machine. Let's remember that the system we're seeing now with the Republican and Democratic central committees nominating candidates for a vacancy is the way political races used to routinely be handled, with the central committees making endorsements that, if the party apparatus was strong, pretty much guaranteed the candidate's nomination in the primary.
Darrell Todd Maurina
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Offline Seeg

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2009, 04:06:49 PM »
So you are content with having 44 times more millionaires in Congress than what is in the general public?
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline shadylane

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2009, 07:16:02 PM »
So you are content with having 44 times more millionaires in Congress than what is in the general public?

I'm no fan of millionaires but I'd rather have them in charge than skid row bums.
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline David Day

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2009, 08:17:23 PM »
Without going into a great deal of detail, I will argue that term limits at the federal level will send more millionaires to DC, not fewer.  Ask yourself, who can afford to put their career/life on hold to get to serve a max of 8 years (or whatever the limits were set at, that is the most commonly talked about) in another job (politics) and the additional couple of years needed for the first election to campaign and raise money....the average "working Joe" or a millionaire?  While I know that many don't like politics in DC being a "career", it having that possibility is the only way that many "average" folks will put their careers on hold and run.  If you have enough money, that is no big deal to you.

I have a lot of thoughts on the amount of money it takes to win races, etc... but I will skip all of that for now, the discussion is term limits.

Again, everyone has their thoughts on term limits and I tell folks all of the time...."Pick your side and I can argue the other if you want me to", there is both good and bad with them and I am not trying to change anyones mind at all.  I just think that sometimes when folks want them they are not aware of all of what they are asking for.  Things like who will be the candidates, the shift of power, who actually runs the government, etc...  Of course, there is a lot of good that goes with them also.  People just have to decide if the good outweighs the bad.

Anyway, always a discussion I enjoy.

Later...Happy Veterans Day all.

Dave
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Offline Seeg

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2009, 08:23:36 PM »
I'm no fan of millionaires but I'd rather have them in charge than skid row bums.
The thing is Shady, that someone like yourself who is intelligent, hardworking and creative in their ideals has virtually no chance at becoming an elected official at even the state level.  I don't know what Rep. Day spent on each of his elections and how much of it was out of his own pocket but most of us would never be able to self-finance what is needed to become elected (not that I would ever want to myself).

The system definitely favors the well-to-do and although that may not be the biggest of evils I think that after a period of time it has proven to dilute the elected offices with an overwhelming imbalance that is not representative of the general public.  And I believe that our founding fathers would frown on the "professional" politicians and the aforementioned imbalance we currently have in our Senate and House.
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline Seeg

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2009, 08:27:26 PM »
Dave.... didn't see your post until I posted.  I want you to know I was in NO WAY singling you out as I think you know what I think about you and your representation.

Btw, this thread originally started as a topic concerning the fact that it's nearly impossible for multi-millionaires to properly represent the common man in America so your thoughts on campaign financing are of course welcomed in this topic as well.
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline What_The?

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2009, 08:29:59 PM »
Socialism!  Punish the wealthy!  Commies!  Class warfare,  End of the American way!
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline shadylane

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2009, 08:33:04 PM »
The thing is Shady, that someone like yourself who is intelligent, hardworking and creative in their ideals has virtually no chance at becoming an elected official at even the state level.  I don't know what Rep. Day spent on each of his elections and how much of it was out of his own pocket but most of us would never be able to self-finance what is needed to become elected (not that I would ever want to myself).

The system definitely favors the well-to-do and although that may not be the biggest of evils I think that after a period of time it has proven to dilute the elected offices with an overwhelming imbalance that is not representative of the general public.  And I believe that our founding fathers would frown on the "professional" politicians and the aforementioned imbalance we currently have in our Senate and House.

I had to quote this one just so I could read part of it again.
Back to the post. I'm not sure which is worst, rich people getting elected or having the government controlled by multinational companies.
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline Seeg

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2009, 08:38:47 PM »
I had to quote this one just so I could read part of it again.
Back to the post. I'm not sure which is worst, rich people getting elected or having the government controlled by multinational companies.
It's kinda morphed into one and the same, hasn't it?
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline Seeg

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2009, 08:42:46 PM »
Socialism!  Punish the wealthy!  Commies!  Class warfare,  End of the American way!

LOL!  First I get accused of supporting big business by one liberal and then I get the same accusations of punishing the wealthy by another!  I guess I'm just all over the map!
"I love my country... it's just the government I fear!"

Offline shadylane

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2009, 08:57:41 PM »
It's kinda morphed into one and the same, hasn't it?

Sadly, the answer is yes.
"The problem with America is stupidity. I'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?"

Offline David Day

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2009, 09:38:27 PM »
Dave.... didn't see your post until I posted.  I want you to know I was in NO WAY singling you out as I think you know what I think about you and your representation.

Btw, this thread originally started as a topic concerning the fact that it's nearly impossible for multi-millionaires to properly represent the common man in America so your thoughts on campaign financing are of course welcomed in this topic as well.

Not offended at all, never give it a second thought.  Might post more later but off to other events today, just came home to change into casual stuff.

Take care all.  Thanks again vets!!!!

Dave
Political Website:  www.StateRepDay.com
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Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2009, 10:02:59 PM »
So you are content with having 44 times more millionaires in Congress than what is in the general public?

I can't quickly prove it, but if you ran inflation-adjusted figures for 50 years ago and 100 years ago, the number of millionaires in 2009 dollars was likely far higher.

Remember that a "millionaire" is typically calculated by net worth. In our major cities, housing values are far higher than around here. My parents' house in what today would be considered a "bad neighborhood" was in poor repair and had not been lived in for several years when my father finally sold it this year, and even in the current depressed economy of Michigan it brought a quarter-million dollars.

A typical lawyer's house in an upper-middle-class neighborhood of a major city will cost at least a half-million dollars. Change that to a large house with five or six bedrooms in an upscale neighborhood and you're talking a million or more, just in housing values. Add some good investments in the stock market and you can easily be a millionaire.

Now compare that to a hundred years ago with agricultural land values of successful farmers or self-employed businessmen or doctors or owners of a store, and many of the businesspeople we would consider to be qualified to represent us in Congress would have a net worth in excess of a million dollars, either in 2009 dollars or inflation-adjusted dollars for 50 or 100 years ago.

I emphatically do **NOT** believe you need to be a successful businessman to serve in Congress. But most of us would believe that good business sense helps elected officials do a good job. Once you get out of rural America today, it's awfully hard to be successful in business without in the process acquiring substantial assets either in real estate or in business assets or in investments. A hundred years ago, that was also true of rural America.

None of this is saying we should not elect less-affluent people. We **SHOULD** elect people who have already proven themselves to be successful at what they're doing, and success in some fields does not come with a high income. That's perfectly fine with me.
Darrell Todd Maurina
Check out the Pulaski County Daily News online newspaper at
http://www.pulaskicountyweb.com
Cell: (573) 433.6733 * FAX: (573) 774-2349
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Offline Seeg

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Re: Time to start all over.....
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2009, 10:36:38 PM »
Yeah, I'm sure they are using net-worth figures but they don't have to include their homes.  Not sure how much I trust these figures though.

 Guess our VP's net worth? 

$27,000.

Federal financial disclosure laws donít require members to list the value of their personal residences. That information could alter the net worth picture for many lawmakers.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1109/29235.html
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