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Author Topic: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!  (Read 6007 times)

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Offline ghost_of_notsniw

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Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« on: May 04, 2007, 09:15:06 PM »

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WASHINGTON (AP) - The National Rifle Association is urging the Bush administration to withdraw its support of a bill that would prohibit suspected terrorists from buying firearms.

Backed by the Justice Department, the measure would give the attorney general the discretion to block gun sales, licenses or permits to terror suspects.

In a letter this week to Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, NRA executive director Chris Cox said the bill, offered last week by Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., "would allow arbitrary denial of Second Amendment rights based on mere 'suspicions' of a terrorist threat."

"As many of our friends in law enforcement have rightly pointed out, the word 'suspect' has no legal meaning, particularly when it comes to denying constitutional liberties," Cox wrote.

In a letter supporting the measure, Acting Assistant Attorney General Richard Hertling said the bill would not automatically prevent a gun sale to a suspected terrorist. In some cases, federal agents may want to let a sale go forward to avoid compromising an ongoing investigation.

Hertling also notes there is a process to challenge denial of a sale.

Current law requires gun dealers to conduct a criminal background check and deny sales if a gun purchaser falls under a specified prohibition, including a felony conviction, domestic abuse conviction or illegal immigration. There is no legal basis to deny a sale if a purchaser is on a terror watch list.

"When I tell people that you can be on a terrorist watch list and still be allowed to buy as many guns as you want, they are shocked," said Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, which supports Lautenberg's bill.

In the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings, lawmakers are considering a number of measures to strengthen gun sale laws. The NRA, which usually opposes increased restrictions on firearms, is taking different positions depending on the proposal.

"Right now law enforcement carefully monitors all firearms sales to those on the terror watch list," said NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam. "Injecting the attorney general into the process just politicizes it."

A 2005 study by the Government Accountability Office found that 35 of 44 firearm purchase attempts over a five-month period made by known or suspected terrorists were approved by the federal law enforcement officials.


******

How many other Constitutional rights are thrown WAY out the window with SUSPECTED terrorists, but the NRA thinks that the 2nd Amendment is exempt?

Offline Rockmeister

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2007, 09:41:59 PM »
Hey zippy, did some big hunter rape you or something, is that why you hate gun owners so bad?

Offline ghost_of_notsniw

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2007, 09:49:57 PM »
Who said I hate gun owners?

I hate irresponsible people who can't see past their own selfish desires.

Care to take on the meat of the subject or should we discuss your Freudian desire to put me into your rape fantasies?

UsedFoodProcessor

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2007, 11:26:19 PM »
 At the request of the Bush Justice Department, Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) introduced the “Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2007” (S. 1237) in a push to give the attorney general authority to deny the Second Amendment rights of “known or suspected terrorists.” At first glance, this sounds reasonable, but as the Second Amendment Foundation notes, rights should not be taken away “because of some vague suspicion that an American citizen may be up to no good.” SAF founder Alan Gottlieb adds that the bill “raises serious concerns about how someone becomes a ‘suspected terrorist.’ Nobody has explained how one’s name comes to be on such a list, and worse, nobody knows how to get one’s name off such a list.” Indeed—imagine Janet Reno with such a law in her holster.

http://archive.patriotpost.us/pub/07-18_Digest/page-2.php

retired1_us

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2007, 12:21:22 AM »
At the request of the Bush Justice Department, Sen. Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) introduced the “Denying Firearms and Explosives to Dangerous Terrorists Act of 2007” (S. 1237) in a push to give the attorney general authority to deny the Second Amendment rights of “known or suspected terrorists.” At first glance, this sounds reasonable, but as the Second Amendment Foundation notes, rights should not be taken away “because of some vague suspicion that an American citizen may be up to no good.” SAF founder Alan Gottlieb adds that the bill “raises serious concerns about how someone becomes a ‘suspected terrorist.’ Nobody has explained how one’s name comes to be on such a list, and worse, nobody knows how to get one’s name off such a list.” Indeed—imagine Janet Reno with such a law in her holster.

http://archive.patriotpost.us/pub/07-18_Digest/page-2.php

I can't resist - this is only humor....he said "law in her Holster".....Point well made!

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2007, 12:48:59 AM »
What you gonna do when they come to take your guns Ghost?  How did you end up on the "list?"  Think about it.  This "law" is about confiscation based on someone's mere suspicion or the fact they pissed off the wrong person, who provided a "tip" to the Feds?  THAT is the meat of the subject.  Are you one of the "collaborators?"

Offline fish

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2007, 01:40:50 AM »
 Ya gotta read the whole article winston.

 what other right have been thrown out the window.

 In case you didn't know the nra is concerned with gun rights, not a catch all for all things you deem unconstituitional.

shadylane

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2007, 07:46:54 AM »
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. ”    My guess is that the original idea was for anyone in a "well regulated militia" to have the right to bear arms.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2007, 09:45:47 AM »
The PEOPLE were and ARE the militia.  There was no NG or any of that crap.  The Founding Fathers did not like a standing army either.  This enumerated right is not collective.  It IS individual.

shadylane

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2007, 09:37:58 AM »
 Whats well regulated about the so called militia's we have now. Most are domestic terrorist's.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2007, 01:00:07 PM »
You have heard of the Army of One?  I am the militia of one.  Does that make me a terrorist?  I think not.

Offline fish

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2007, 03:59:50 PM »
 you are confusing criminals with people that want to exercise their right to own weapons? or are they both the same to you?

Offline littlejohn

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2007, 04:14:28 PM »
You have heard of the Army of One?  I am the militia of one.  Does that make me a terrorist?  I think not.

Only your hairdresser knows ;-)
You can take the boy out of the Ozarks, but you can't take the Ozarks out of the boy.

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt". - Mark Twain

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2007, 07:36:15 PM »
If being prepared to eliminate a threat is terrorist activity, then that would qaulify me I guess.  I make my own way and if a criminal wants to try something when I am around, then it is HIS activity that causes him harm.  Think about it.

retired1_us

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2007, 11:04:41 PM »
If being prepared to eliminate a threat is terrorist activity, then that would qaulify me I guess.  I make my own way and if a criminal wants to try something when I am around, then it is HIS activity that causes him harm.  Think about it.

It's good to know there are a few of us still willing to take a stand.

shadylane

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2007, 07:01:14 AM »
Congradulations, You and Mr. Cho agree that its some one else who makes you do it.


If being prepared to eliminate a threat is terrorist activity, then that would qaulify me I guess.  I make my own way and if a criminal wants to try something when I am around, then it is HIS activity that causes him harm.  Think about it.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2007, 09:22:26 AM »
No, it is cause and effect.  His behavior is what brings on the effect of being a criminal in the first place.  Those students did nothing to Cho.  If one of them had been armed, that shooting would have stopped short of his goal. We are not talking about a killing spree here.  Talking about stopping a criminal in action.  The use of a firearm is a last resort to me.   

Offline DollarBill

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2007, 06:58:38 PM »
Shadylane.

The idea of a "well regulated militia" has nothing to do with an individual right to keep and bear arms.  That feeble argument has been overturned in the courts for some time.

When the govt comes to your house to take what is yours I guess you'll just step aside and say come on in, take what you want.  A few others of us won't.  That is the spirit of the 2nd Amendment.

As for most of the militias being terrorists, well, most are disgruntled Americans fed up with taxes and govt. intervention in everything.  If they were terrorists they would get an all expense trip to Gitmo.

As for Cho.  Please.....  Do you really think that warped individual has anything in common with law abiding citizens who take the responsibility of owning and bearing arms?  If you do your prejudice is then totally obvious and an intellectual debate even on the net is impossible.

Check your facts.  Got to youtube do a search on Penn and Teller's BS and watch the one on gun control with an open mind and then come back and we'll talk.  Get facts straight and leave personal biases out.  Then make a conscious decision based on facts not feelings.

have a real one.
Bless ya matrsnot.  You too retired1_us
and even you shadylane 

$Bill
I was alright . . .   I got over it.   
It takes 43 muscles to frown; 17 to Smile.
But Only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze....

Offline fish

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2007, 12:28:19 AM »
 Maybe this will help shady,

Thursday, February 1, 2007

Evidence says gun laws don't work

By MICHAEL S. BROWN

The anti-gun op-ed by Dr. Clifford M. Herman ("Bowing down to NRA is dangerous," Jan. 23) certainly fits in with the renewed push by the P-I for more gun laws. As with previous articles, this one demonizes the NRA, offers anecdotal insights and questions the meaning of the Second Amendment. What it does not do is address the essential question.

Honest legislators must ask: Which gun laws, if any, will truly reduce violence? Thanks to the Clinton administration and the Centers for Disease Control, we have a pretty good idea. A group of scientists reviewed the extensive literature on the effectiveness of gun laws and released its report in 2003. With so many gun laws enacted in the latter half of the 20th century, there were numerous examples to study, but they were unable to find convincing evidence that any gun laws have ever been effective.

Their search included Herman's 1988 Seattle-Vancouver study. Given that Herman is vociferously anti-gun, what are the chances that his study was scientifically sound and unbiased? That's right, and virtually every anti-gun study ever done was created by the same kind of people and funded by openly anti-gun foundations. Their built-in bias makes them useless for public policy debate.

Washingtonians are not stupid. We are aware that gun laws have failed miserably wherever they have been tried. Anyone who knows how to visit the FBI Web site can tell you that the most dangerous places in the United States often are the places with the strictest gun laws. Gun laws overseas have been no more successful. Asking the Legislature to give us more is a colossal waste of time and an insult to our intelligence.

The real reason for the resurgence of anti-gun rhetoric is a long-running culture war between the two sides of the gun debate. From 1994 until the 2006 elections, the once powerful gun control lobby got kicked around by the NRA. Now that they have new friends in office, they want some payback.

Knowing that gun laws don't work, what is the anti-gun lobby to do with its renewed political influence? Here in Washington, it is promoting a bill that will end private sales of guns at gun shows. But wait, the Department of Justice tells us that less than 1 percent of crime guns were purchased at gun shows, so why support such a useless law? The answer, in a word, is payback.

You see, although gun shows are not a significant source of crime guns, they are both a tool and symbol of the gun rights movement. People gather to discuss their hobby, curse the gun grabbers and enjoy spirited haggling over the price of treasured objects. They also recruit new members and raise funds for gun rights organizations. What better target for the wrath of those who despise guns and gun owners?

The concept of reducing violence by passing gun laws is a fallacy, as evidenced by several decades of failure. The only proven solution is to put criminals in prison and keep them there as long as you can. This is not a popular way to spend tax dollars, hence the opening for culture warriors to hijack the lawmaking process for their own ends.

Michael S. Brown, O.D., of Vancouver is a member of Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws; www.dsgl.org.

retired1_us

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2007, 04:36:15 PM »
Another fine example of folks intent on doing harm - finding weapons WITHOUT licenses:

http://www.wnbc.com/news/13274813/detail.html?dl=mainclick

And another fine reason the rest of us doing everything we can to keep what we have!!!!!

shadylane

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2007, 07:38:47 AM »
"you can give up your rights, but don't ask me to give up my gun, why the NRA, and the Gun manufacturer's would go broke, not to mention all those nasty liberals I wouldn't be able to defend myself against. O-no was that a piece of the sky I saw falling" 

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2007, 12:45:02 PM »
Ok to say for now Shady lane.  I sincerely hope you are never in need of assistance and not have it available.

Offline fish

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2007, 12:21:11 AM »
 there are areas handguns are banned shady,morton grove Ill. for one. The local bank was robbed the day the ban took effect.

 Try looking at what the nra and pro gun groups are doing. not only are they preserving our right to keep and bear arms, they are preserving your right not to if YOU choose.

shadylane

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2007, 09:50:51 AM »
Ok explain why suspected terrorist should have guns?   We can jail them, spy on them or torture them,  but not disarm them?

Offline innercity23

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2007, 01:15:09 PM »
Ok explain why suspected terrorist should have guns?   We can jail them, spy on them or torture them,  but not disarm them?

Because SUSPECTED is not the same thing as CONFIRMED.

Offline ghost_of_notsniw

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2007, 06:37:31 PM »
Suspected terrorists have every other Constitutional right violated.

EVERY single one.

Why should they be allowed to arm themselves?

If a SUSPECTED terrorist can be held in secret CIA prisons, indefinitely, without access to a lawyer, a fair trial, without appeals, without the right to due process...

If a SUSPECTED terrorist can be flown to another country to be tortured, beaten, killed...

If a SUSPECTED terrorist can have their mail opened and read, internet use tracked, e-mail read, have their bank accounts frozen and tracked, without due process...

WHY SHOULD THEY BE ALLOWED TO BUY GUNS?

Offline Coyote

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2007, 07:09:32 PM »
Terrorists have NO Constitutional rights.  None.  At all.  How do you think terrorists are discovered???  They must first be suspected of doing something.  How do you know what all happens to suspected terrorists??  From what you read online?
....and that night as the moon crossed the mountain, one more Coyote was heard...

Offline ghost_of_notsniw

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2007, 08:18:13 PM »
Terrorists have NO Constitutional rights.  None.  At all.  How do you think terrorists are discovered???  They must first be suspected of doing something.  How do you know what all happens to suspected terrorists??  From what you read online?

So again,

WHY EXACTLY DO SUSPECTED TERRORISTS HAVE THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS BUT NONE OF THE OTHERS?

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2007, 11:53:12 PM »
You have to be able to DEFINE suspected terrorist.  Lay out precisely what one is.  Is a terrorist someone who hates Bush?  Is a terrorist someone talking too much against current govt policies?  Tell me what a suspected terrorist is.

Offline ghost_of_notsniw

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2007, 03:09:21 PM »
You have to be able to DEFINE suspected terrorist.  Lay out precisely what one is.  Is a terrorist someone who hates Bush?  Is a terrorist someone talking too much against current govt policies?  Tell me what a suspected terrorist is.

Sounds like a Liberal before guns were threatened.

When it wasn't yours' that they were after, you were silent.

Now that they are after yours, you become ridiculous.