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Author Topic: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!  (Read 6018 times)

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Offline matrsnot

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2007, 11:50:27 PM »

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A comment and not an answer at all.  Guns were threatened as a knee jerk reaction to the murder of Kennedy and King in 1968.  I was still old enough even then that the govt is not my friend.  So, what is a terrorist?  What labels or parameters would be used by the AG to call a person a terrorist?  Put up or shut up.

retired1_us

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2007, 08:59:53 PM »
I think the NRA is doing what it is supposed to do in this situation - mainly because the word "suspected" says nothing, but could mean ANYONE.  Lauttenberg and the Brady bunch have been at this for years, and it is just one more way for them to try and swindle their position into law.  Remember folks, no matter how it gets there, if it becomes law.....it's over.

Personally, debating the issue against the other constitutional rights of said persons.....is a moot point.  We are at war - a war against terror - that was declared very clearly from the beginning.

The thing that got me from Ghost's original post was the count - 35 of 44 guns are being sold to suspected terrorists.....hmmmm  I'm not a rocket scientist but that means 80% of the guns are going where?  Impossible.  But it is enough to make the average sky is falling citizen crap their pants.  And unfortunately, when they clean themselves up afterward they will all be on the band wagon too.

Offline ghost_of_notsniw

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2007, 03:45:59 PM »
If we are at war with terrorists, how exactly is allowing those suspected of being terrorists to legally buy guns in the US helpful to the cause?

ARMING terrorists is okay with the NRA and Conservatives because...of semantics?

Because ridiculing Bill Clinton for something as trivial as semantics is worth 8 years of a Conservatives life, but when its about allowing suspected terrorists to by guns it is suddenly an important distinction to make?

Suspected terrorists in the US have been rounded up by the CIA and flown to foreign countries to be tortured for YEARS.

Suspected terrorists, even those who share the same name as those on the terrorist watch list, cannot fly on airplaines.

They can go buy as many guns as needed to take over Waynesville High School and kill all of the children there(remember that terrorist scenario?), all with the support and blessing of the No Responsibility Association, but they can't fly.

They can go buy all the guns they need to attack troops at Ft. Dix (remember that scenario?).

Why is that particular Amendment worthy of protection for suspected terrorists but no other is?

Because now you fear something you value (your guns) is being threatened.

You didn't care when it was a complete raping of the civil liberties and privacy rights of American citizens, suspected terrorists or NOT, because your rights and privacy don't mean as much to you as your guns.

You didn't care when it was the systematic dismateling of due process, because it didn't mean as much to you as your guns.

It didn't matter to you when it didn't affect you.

And as I've posted before, you didn't speak out when they came and took away the rights of others, because you didn't value those rights for OTHERS and assumed because you were on the "winning team" that they would never come for yours.

Now that the right YOU think is most important comes under a much lesser attack, of a much smaller scale, and for a much greater cause, you of course suddenly decide that the Constitutional protections mean something.

That goes right to the heart and soul of what is wrong with the NRA.

No responsibility, only childish reactions to common sense gun control and selfishness that boggles the mind.

If any group can be said to be in support of arming terrorists, it is the NRA and its supporters who think a common sense ban on gun sales to suspected terrorists is bad while keeping quiet on the completely valid arguments against the systematic dismantelling of American civil liberties.

Offline Coyote

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2007, 04:43:21 PM »
 %$$%%$#
....and that night as the moon crossed the mountain, one more Coyote was heard...

retired1_us

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2007, 05:01:19 PM »
Well, ya got me on that one for sure......what other civil liberties are missing?

In the mean time, let me simplify my stand:

1.  I do not feel threatened.

2.  I stated the fact that the NRA is doing THEIR job - the job people would expect them to do.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Kind of the no-brainer in the equation.

3.  It's the ACLU's job to protect individual rights - and just where the hell are they in all of this civil liberties lost thing?

4.  Every chip away at the second amendment (or any other) is a chip towards it's ultimate demise.  It's only a matter of time.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2007, 08:54:18 PM »
Ok Ghost.  Here we go.  First, the ACLU only protects, in court, those civil liberties it agrees with.  In other words, all except the 2d Amendment.  Next, keep in mind that ANYONE can be branded a terrorist.  Even you.  Get in a tiff with your neighbor?  No porblem.  Turn them in to the local gestapo for interrogation and make sure they are never allowed access to guns.  BS.  At the rate you are going, you need the foil hat I think.  Now just which rights were being raped and civil liberties for that matter?  speaking in generalities is not going to get you anywhere in this conversation.  and BTW were yoiu aware that the State Congress just passed the Castle Doctrine?  Means the poor criminals will no longer be able to break in a home at will without being subject to deadly force and they cannot sue afterwards either.  What a shame.

Offline ghost_of_notsniw

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2007, 09:15:21 PM »
Ok Ghost.  Here we go.  First, the ACLU only protects, in court, those civil liberties it agrees with.  In other words, all except the 2d Amendment.  Next, keep in mind that ANYONE can be branded a terrorist.  Even you.  Get in a tiff with your neighbor?  No porblem.  Turn them in to the local gestapo for interrogation and make sure they are never allowed access to guns.  BS.  At the rate you are going, you need the foil hat I think.  Now just which rights were being raped and civil liberties for that matter?  speaking in generalities is not going to get you anywhere in this conversation.  and BTW were yoiu aware that the State Congress just passed the Castle Doctrine?  Means the poor criminals will no longer be able to break in a home at will without being subject to deadly force and they cannot sue afterwards either.  What a shame.

The point is, do you value your other civil liberties as much as you do your right to own a gun, should you be marked as a suspected terrorist?

Would you speak out if marked as a suspected terrorist against the Bush policy of flying you to a secret CIA prison base in Saudi Arabia to be beaten and tortured for a few years, without your family knowing where you were, without a lawyer, without a right to trial, without the right to examine the witnesses against you or the evidence used against you?

Would you speak out if marked as a suspected terrorist by the Bush administration if your bank accounts were frozen, your internet, phone and mail is being secretly monitored and you were denied even the right to speak about your plight?

Would you speak out if marked as a suspected terrorist and you were sent to Gitmo for 5 years, no laywers, no trial, no hope in life?

Ah, but you will speak out if you are branded a suspected terrorist if they denied you the right to buy a gun?

Why not speak out against the other violations of Constitutional rights of suspected terrorists?

Because it doesn't involve your right to purchase a gun?

Each step in the systematic destruction of civil liberties, guaranteed by the US Constitution, has been vocally supported by the right wing.  From the Un-Patriot Act down to the right for Bush to read your mail.

NOW that guns are involved, the right wingers go nuts.

Makes no sense.

Either you value ALL of your civil liberties and are outraged at the destruction of them our you just care about your guns.

Can't have it both ways.

Look where the slippery slope of the Un-Patriot Act has taken us.

Give up your rights as a citizen, no matter how small, and you give the government a blank check to take them all.

You should have fought harder and spoke louder when Bush took away the rights of every American citizen instead of patting each other on the back and saying, "Damn it feels good to be on the winning team."

Now that something you value is being threatened, you can't stop the irrational and pointless arguments.


Offline ghost_of_notsniw

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2007, 10:02:00 PM »
Here, again is the poem:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


***

When the Bushie's came for the Muslims,
I remained silent;
I was not a Muslim.

When they locked up the suspected enemy combatants,
I remained silent;
I was not a suspected enemy combatant.

When they came for the Liberals,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Liberal.

When they came for my guns,
there was no one left to speak out.

Offline dcmo22119

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2007, 11:34:22 PM »
Just curious, can anyone specifically name a right being infringed in fact?  I am unaware of any American citizens being held in Cuba or having been flown anywhere for interrogation.  If anyone has some information on this I would appreciate it.  Note-  I personally view Constitutional Rights to apply only to citizens and consider the responsibilities that go with any right just as important.  Responsibilities include but are not limited to informed voting, state/national service, serving on juries, etc.
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public"
--   Theodore Roosevelt, Jr,
1918

retired1_us

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2007, 11:48:58 PM »
Here, again is the poem:

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


***

When the Bushie's came for the Muslims,
I remained silent;
I was not a Muslim.

When they locked up the suspected enemy combatants,
I remained silent;
I was not a suspected enemy combatant.

When they came for the Liberals,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Liberal.

When they came for my guns,
there was no one left to speak out.

My friend, you need to get out more.  And I would ask you to find a movie called The Handmaid's Tale.  Don't know if there was a book associated with it or not.  Bottom line there is it was rather chilling.  And the political figures had no party affiliations.  You had to guess who they were at the time.

Have you been to GITMO?  Where the guards have no rights?  Where feces and urine await their every turn of a corner?  Where the captives have more rights than the captors?

And how about those "secret prisons" in Saudi Arabia?  Just where are they - remember, they are secret and people are being tortured there.

But worst of all, I get the gist of YOUR personal agenda.  How many hairs can you hackle on someones head.

You need to get out - seriously.  Reminds me of the "skip talkers" of the old CB days - "Worldwide from somewhere USA"  Talkin the globe.

It's funny how the Dem side is using the public - every time one of them speaks - "The American citizens are fed up with this and that"  Well, they didn't ask me, so they shouldn't include me in their stand.  If one hundredth of one percent didn't agree, then it isn't factual.

You started the whole thing with OK NRA fans........you launched the first volley.  Let the game begin.  With real facts.

The war on terror is one of the last throngs the world will have to suffer and sort out - visa vis WWI (not II)  Familiar with the Mufti's and the real Arafat?  Yes it is all relevant, you have made that very clear as well.

I started the real debate.  Now lets see how we can come to a solution.

retired1_us

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Re: Okay, NRA Fans, Explain THIS One!
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2007, 11:51:38 PM »
Just curious, can anyone specifically name a right being infringed in fact?  I am unaware of any American citizens being held in Cuba or having been flown anywhere for interrogation.  If anyone has some information on this I would appreciate it.  Note-  I personally view Constitutional Rights to apply only to citizens and consider the responsibilities that go with any right just as important.  Responsibilities include but are not limited to informed voting, state/national service, serving on juries, etc.

Ghost does a very good job of stirring up the pot with a short stick.  Good question, good points.  He / she runs out of steam when the issues require real thinking and research.