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Author Topic: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life  (Read 18414 times)

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Offline kari

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Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2010, 01:35:06 PM »
I've read articles on this subject elsewhere.

I'm not going to defend the Roman Catholic Church; that's not my battle. I'm fully in agreement with the concerns of some people that this nun is being punished much more quickly than some pedophile priests. But criticizing an inconsistency is not the same as saying the church should not have been consistent by punishing both violations of the standards of the church.

If you're going to dedicate your life to a religious organization -- or anything else, for that matter -- you need to know the rules before you join, agree to follow them, and actually follow them once you've agreed. The position of the Roman Catholic Church on abortion is well-known and it's not something on which people in religious orders should be "pushing the edges" of what is and is not saving the life of the mother. In doubtful cases, there's no reason the patient could not have been transferred to a secular hospital or a religious hospital of a different faith where performing this abortion would not have raised concerns.

I realize the concept of agreeing to follow orders and obey pre-defined standards is foreign to much of American society, but it shouldn't be very difficult to understand in a military community where the enlistment oath is well-known and carries literally life-and-death consequences.
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Offline kari

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 02:50:54 PM »
In doubtful cases, there's no reason the patient could not have been transferred to a secular hospital or a religious hospital of a different faith where performing this abortion would not have raised concerns.
Would the hospital not have been guilty of gross neglect, had the woman died in transit, because a hospital equipped to save her life refused to? 
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Offline Waynesvillian

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 04:21:15 PM »
This is why religion is dopey, and even moreso the Catholic Church.  Priests that touch little boys are allowed to stay, but the nun who saves a womens life at the cost of the unborn child that is killing her is excommunicated.  TBH its for the best for the nun, whats even funnier is she shouldn't be angry or feel sorrow for being excommunicated after all it was all in God's plan for her to be thrown out of the church in which she belonged right?

Offline kari

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 08:30:48 PM »
I can not imagine how that Nun feels.  She searched her heart and soul, prayed for guidance, saved the life of a Mother of four, and now has her Church turn their back on her.  There are four children that don't have to cry because their Mother died.   Won't have to grow up without their Mommy.  I see this Nun as a hero.  I just want to hug her.
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Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 09:51:41 PM »
Would the hospital not have been guilty of gross neglect, had the woman died in transit, because a hospital equipped to save her life refused to? 

Legally no.

The patient knew it was a Roman Catholic hospital and religious institutions have the right to follow their convictions.

But more importantly, I'm not yet convinced this was an urgent case. I'm not Roman Catholic so I don't need to defend the details of this hospital's practices -- but I will defend the right of people to practice their religion, and to insist that religious institutions follow those practices.
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Offline Chas

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 10:04:13 PM »
DTM
Do you know something about this we donít?  Because I would like to know why you donít think this was an urgent case.  When I seen this on the news it seemed pretty urgent.  It doesnít say she went there looking for an abortion but that doctors and here is the key word (doctors) believe she would likely die if she didnít have one.  Not a reporter who didnít think it was urgent.  The Nun should be commended for saving a life and keeping a family together. I am so glad I am NOT Catholic.   There should be exceptions a zero policy is always a bad policy.

Offline kari

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2010, 11:24:49 PM »
Legally no.

The patient knew it was a Roman Catholic hospital and religious institutions have the right to follow their convictions.

But more importantly, I'm not yet convinced this was an urgent case. I'm not Roman Catholic so I don't need to defend the details of this hospital's practices -- but I will defend the right of people to practice their religion, and to insist that religious institutions follow those practices.
There are questions raised that you seem to already have the answers to....  My questions to you, did the patient arrive by ambulance, what was the condition of the patient upon arrival at the hospital (was she conscious/unconscious), were there any hospitals closer or was that the closest, was there time to transport the patient, or would she have died during transportation?  Do religious institutions (hospitals) have the legal right to deny a patient emergency, life saving, care?
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Offline Waynesvillian

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2010, 02:01:07 AM »
it seems people have the right to do whatever they want if its for their "god".  Which is another reason religion is dopey.

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2010, 04:26:28 AM »
There are questions raised that you seem to already have the answers to....  My questions to you, did the patient arrive by ambulance, what was the condition of the patient upon arrival at the hospital (was she conscious/unconscious), were there any hospitals closer or was that the closest, was there time to transport the patient, or would she have died during transportation?  Do religious institutions (hospitals) have the legal right to deny a patient emergency, life saving, care?

What I know about this case is more than has been written here, but less than I would need to defend in detail the stance of the Roman Catholic Church.

I may end up doing that research if none of the Roman Catholics on this board stand up and do it. This isn't my fight, it's theirs, and I'd prefer to let them deal with it. There are differences between the standard evangelical position on abortion and that of the Roman Catholic Church, but they're minor and not worth getting into here in detail.

The basic issue is this: if you believe that an unborn child is a child and not just a mere blob of tissue, then abortion is an option **ONLY** if the life of the mother is at stake, not merely at risk. Was this truly such a case, beyond a shadow of a doubt? Was this a case where immediate action needed to be taken **RIGHT THEN** or both would die? Nothing I've read yet indicates either of those to be the case. If someone can show either or both of those things to be true, my view of the situation could change quite a bit.

Cases of true therapeutic abortion do exist. They are extremely rare and account for a miniscule number of abortions. Tubal pregnancies, aggressive cancer in the baby's tissues, and similar situations do happen where the death of the baby is virtually certain with the current state of medical technology and place the life of the mother at grave risk without an abortion. However, they are so rare that outside of a university-based teaching hospital, it's quite possible to go through an entire medical career and never see even one such situation.

Furthermore, lots of medical conditions that regularly killed mothers just a hundred years ago are now routinely treated in hospitals as minor medical complications. With the development of medical technology, we'll probably eventually find a way to save tubal pregnancies and treat in-utero cancer without killing both the baby and the mother.
Darrell Todd Maurina
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Offline Chas

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2010, 03:09:00 PM »
Doctors today said she may die not doctors a hundred years ago.  Women today still die during child birth. 

Offline Waynesvillian

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2010, 03:30:44 PM »
Couldnt they just have said the baby was the anti-christ and they had to stop it before it was unleashed upon the world??!!  Thats what I would have said, and I'd still be in the cool guys club.

Offline Coyote

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2010, 04:58:57 PM »
The Roman Catholic Church is probably the largest supporter of the pro-life movement in the world.   It teaches us that human life, in the form of egg and sperm, becomes a human person at the time of conception.   Abortion causes the murder of an innocent human person, pre-embryo, embryo or fetus.   We believe that human life is sacred from conception to natural death.  If a person is Catholic, they fully believe in the church and the doctrine.  If not, they are no longer Catholic.  The nun does not believe in the church's stand on abortion, so why would she want to stay in an organization in which she does not believe?  The abortion decision was not hers to make, so why would medical doctors leave it up to a nun to "authorize" an abortion?  It all sounds a little hokey to me.
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Offline kari

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2010, 05:17:25 PM »
One way I looked at this was..... A woman who has dedicated her life to her belief, prayed for guidance in a extremely difficult situation,  may well have received an answer to her prayers (can any person of religious belief say prayers are not answered?) when "her" decision was made.  Can a religious person say G_D did not answer her prayer?  Can a religious person say that G_D would not wish a Mother of four to live, but rather die for the sake of a fetus that would not have been born?  Would a religious person honestly believe that G_D would not have "known" that both Mother and fetus would die if the Nun did not come to the decision she did?  There is an old saying.... G_D works in mysterious ways, or maybe some religious people no longer believe such things?
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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2010, 05:19:24 PM »
  There is an old saying.... G_D works in mysterious ways, or maybe some religious people no longer believe such things?

That is true.  God does work in mysterious ways...however, the nun is not God.
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Offline kari

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2010, 05:21:27 PM »
That is true.  God does work in mysterious ways...however, the nun is not God.
No one said she was, but as a believing person..... can you say G_D wasn't working through her to save this woman?  After all, she did pray for help/guidance.
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Offline Coyote

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2010, 05:30:13 PM »
For example...Last week in my regular prayer, I prayed especially for two of my family members in extreme and dire need.  My prayer was answered for both of them.  I am not surprised by this, but I witnessed this.  I did not lay my hands on either one of them...God did.
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Offline kari

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2010, 05:39:07 PM »
Coyote, are you saying that it IS possible that G_D could have been working through this Nun to save the life of this woman?  Your prayers were answered.  Is it not possible that G_D's hands were involved in the entire situation.....the woman going to that hospital, the Doctors diagnosis, the Nun's decision, the procedure, and the woman's life being saved? 
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Offline Chas

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2010, 05:40:02 PM »
The Catholic Church should not be passing judgment on anyone.  They have enough on their plate. 
Their past indiscretions and the pedophile priests.  Even the Pope is involved.

Offline 42

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2010, 06:01:19 PM »
The Roman Catholic Church is probably the largest supporter of the pro-life movement in the world.   It teaches us that human life, in the form of egg and sperm, becomes a human person at the time of conception.   Abortion causes the murder of an innocent human person, pre-embryo, embryo or fetus.   We believe that human life is sacred from conception to natural death.  If a person is Catholic, they fully believe in the church and the doctrine.  If not, they are no longer Catholic.  The nun does not believe in the church's stand on abortion, so why would she want to stay in an organization in which she does not believe?  The abortion decision was not hers to make, so why would medical doctors leave it up to a nun to "authorize" an abortion?  It all sounds a little hokey to me.

Emphasis mine.

Hmm... You may want to ignore a real good chunk of the history of the Catholic church if you truly believe this. Yeah, every group of folks has their share of blood on their hands but few can match the enormity and sheer lenght of time of brutality of the Catholic Church. That statement tells me that for hundreds of years there were no Catholics and much of the clergy and Popes and even papal edicts were anti-Catholic (anti-humanity really). I'm not saying your wrong, I am saying that flies in the face a huge chunk of the history of the Catholic Church.

What's the deal? Are they now attempting to "make up" for the millions killed before and the millions more that may be killed in ill-conceived (good pun!) and papal-approved nonsensical "no condom" AIDS control in Africa and raped children?

Sounds a little hokey to me.

Offline Waynesvillian

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2010, 06:34:41 PM »
So coyote is saying that if someone is sick and I pray that they get better, BUT they go to a doctor and he treats them and they get better then it isnt in fact god that helped them but the doctor?  By coyotes definition in his earlier post in order for god to help someone they have to be completly left alone so god can do his work by him/her/itself.  Would you please look over your last couple of posts and realize the insanity of thinking because you thought something to something that what you thought came true!!!  Nevermind the fact that your "praying" for something that has already been decided (according to your faith) long before you ever knew it was going to happen.  Its funny to me "crazy" people get locked up in asylums for talking to or hearing voices in their heads, but I hear of religious people saying how they talk with god and he talks back all the time.

Offline kari

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2010, 07:12:25 PM »
Waynesvillian, Coyote is a woman.....   I also do not think that is what she was saying.  Each religion has a slightly different thought concerning prayer.  Prayer in some religions is actually suppose to be for praise of G_D only, not asking for things, but not all religions see prayer that way.  I do see your point in praying for something, according to most religions their G_D is all knowing and the outcome is predetermined.  Prayer, for many, is helpful psychologically, it allows a person to turn over certain cares/worries/concerns to what they feel is a higher power.

This thread can be a very difficult one as it deals with issues such as Church policy, life/death, abortion, the core belief that G_D can intervene, and knows all.  If a religious person does not believe that the Nun's prayers were answered by G_D, then this woman's decision was either a "result of "evil" intervention (which means those devoted to G_D are not protected by G_D), or G_D's will, that the woman die with the fetus, was less than human intervention to save her life.  Now, if one believes that G_D's will was done, meaning G_D wanted this woman to live (as is the result), then G_D intervened and condoned the abortion.  Yes, this is a very interesting thread.........
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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2010, 07:15:48 PM »
Nicely put Kari.
....and that night as the moon crossed the mountain, one more Coyote was heard...

Offline kari

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2010, 07:20:05 PM »
Nicely put Kari.
Wow, thank you Coyote.... coming from you, that is an awesome compliment!!!  Hugs!!!
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Offline Chas

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2010, 07:38:11 PM »
I donít know that things are preordained. What about freedom of choice? God gave man free will.  The point of this article as I see it is that the Catholic Church would rather let a mother of four die, than to save her life.  The question is, isnít her life at least (in my opinion more so) as valuable and sacred as an 11 week old fetus.

Offline Coyote

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2010, 07:55:38 PM »
Are you sure the woman would have died without the abortion?  Fifteen years ago I was told that I was in stage 5 of ovarian cancer...turns out I didn't have cancer at all.  Or did I?  The doctor said I did.  Four months later, I didn't (another doctor).  My mom received 11 units of blood in a row in December and finally the Dr. said she won't make it.  Her bleeding then stopped and she's still here today.  Did the bleeding just stop on it's own?  Maybe.  Or maybe not.  Was the Dr. wrong?  Who knows.  These are the truth Chas.  Was it my prayers?  Not to some people.  But to me it is.

I don’t know that things are preordained. What about freedom of choice? God gave man free will.  The point of this article as I see it is that the Catholic Church would rather let a mother of four die, than to save her life.  The question is, isn’t her life at least (in my opinion more so) as valuable and sacred as an 11 week old fetus.
....and that night as the moon crossed the mountain, one more Coyote was heard...

Offline kari

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2010, 08:07:06 PM »
I donít know that things are preordained. What about freedom of choice? God gave man free will.   
Ah, that is one of the many topics theologians have discussed/debated for centuries.  It is believe, by most religions, that G_D is all knowing.  G_D knows the past, present and future.  Now, if G_D is all knowing, how could man have so-called free will since G_D, who is all knowing, already knows what man will do in each situation?  If, G_D is not all knowing, then G_D is fallible.  The possibility of G_D being fallible, goes against most, if not all, religious beliefs.  Damn, I love theology!!!
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Offline Waynesvillian

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2010, 08:50:21 PM »
another prime example of christians backpeddleing through the use of scare tactics in the bible.  Do good to get to heaven, when also god already knows what youll do since he is all knowing.  Having cake and eat it too. That should be written on the spine of the bible.  If there is a god and im being judged by him im gonna chew his ass out if he doesnt let me in for creating me with so many faults.  Its all gods fault! I have no responsibilities for my actions, its gods will what I do!  Has anyone tried to use this as a criminal defense? Im sure someone has tried. Man if God knew I wouldnt believe in him when he created me, why did he waste his time?!!?  Also maybe the meds that doctors give to patients, and say probably wont work(so their not liable) did work as they were intended to do.  Occums Razor the easiest explanation is usually the correct one right? nah thats probably wrong some invisible hand of god probably healed them.  Your probably a pretty rational Human being otherwise though.

Offline Waynesvillian

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2010, 08:56:02 PM »
One further thought, why take your loved ones to the doctor anyway? If god can just heal them thru prayer.  Didnt a couple get sentenced to jail time for doing this exact same thing to their own children.

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Re: Nun excommunicated for authorizing abortion to save woman's life
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2010, 10:04:50 PM »
Waynesvillian... see how much fun theology is?!
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