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Author Topic: House Bill 586  (Read 29915 times)

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Offline Digital Narcosis

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House Bill 586
« on: June 10, 2010, 04:24:02 AM »

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Adult-business owners ready for fight                  By T.J.  Greaney
Thursday, June 3, 2010                                                  In abackroom at Boone Tavern yesterday, a group of businessmen and -womensat down for a working lunch. About 30 owners of adult video stores andgentlemen’s clubs from across Missouri gathered to coordinate theirresponse to what they’re calling a war on the state’s erotic servicesindustry.
A bill now sitting on Gov. Jay Nixon’s desk would make it illegalfor dancers to perform fully nude in clubs, and this, club owners say,would put them out of business. The bill would also force patrons tostay 6 feet away from performers and would prevent strip clubs fromselling alcohol or staying open past midnight. Video stores withpornographic booths would have to keep them open and within eyesight ofa clerk, and no new adult businesses will be allowed within 1,000 feetof a church, school or day-care under the proposed law. The bill,sponsored by Sen. Matt Bartle, R-Lee’s Summit, is set to take effect inAugust.
The mood at the meeting was grim. The club owners estimated 3,000jobs statewide are on the line. “I guess I could reopen as a comedyclub,” grumbled one Kansas City-based strip club owner.
“With the girls dancing fully clothed, it will be a comedy club,” chimed in another.
Two of the most vocal advocates fighting the law are Gene Gruenderand Nellie Symm-Gruender, owners of Passions, a video and novelty chainwith a store on Old 63. Gene is a pony-tailed former electrician andsailboat enthusiast who says he never set foot in an adult store untilhe owned one. Nellie is a registered nurse who sometimes lectures ondomestic violence. Both are tenacious advocates.
“We’re going to fight this tooth and nail because it’s wrong,” GeneGruender said in an interview earlier in the week. “I spent 10 years inthe Army, and the whole idea was to protect our rights. There’s no wayin hell I’m just going to roll over and let them take anything.”
Speaking in their office, where vibrating sex toys and X-ratedposters provide the decoration, the Gruenders said they have spent morethan a month’s worth of time in the past year traveling, testifying andraising money to oppose the bill. They’ve flown in experts to testifyat hearings and bombarded legislators with data contesting charges thatadult businesses lead to drug use, sex crimes or declining propertyvalue.
“It’s pretty sad when the two of us can walk down the halls of theCapitol and probably one-third of the legislators know us by name,”Gene Gruender said.
The Gruenders aren’t new to this type of fight. They were part of alawsuit filed in 2004 that led to the reversal of a law banningsexually oriented billboards along Interstate 70. Back then, theGruenders and another store owner were paid about $120,000 for theirlegal fees after the law was struck down.
But this time, the terrain is even tougher. Despite their bestefforts at persuasion, few state senators or House members votedagainst the bill. “Nobody wants to go on record voting for porn,” GeneGruender said.
I contacted Nixon’s office to ask whether there was any chance of aveto and was told by spokesman Scott Holste that SB 586, like allbills, will receive a “thorough and comprehensive review.” Nixon musttake action by mid-July or the bill automatically becomes law.
The measure has a vocal block of supporters. I spoke by phone toJohn Putnam of Carthage, a Jasper County Republican Party chairmanwhose family has been in the lumber business for 100 years. He andothers in the area have grown disgusted by the adult theaters andcoin-operated “arcades” proliferating along Interstate 44. He pointedto a gruesome incident in Jackson County where a man brought his14-year-old stepdaughter to a theater and allowed men to rape her.
“This is expanding,” he said. “We’re growing from video arcadeswhere mostly men go in and play with themselves, and now they’remeeting there and hooking up with other people, and it’s expanding intogroup sex. We just don’t think it’s healthy for our community. Peopledrive down I-44 and wonder what kind of a sex-trade state Missouri is.”
Putnam has even done some detective work visiting some of theoffending shops during off hours and taking photographs of messageboards and empty sex rooms, which he posts online as evidence that theplaces are havens for anonymous hook-ups. Two years ago, Putnamenlisted the help of state Rep. Ed Emery, R-Lamar, who joined Bartleand sponsored the House version of this bill.
“I’m pretty much a libertarian,” Putnam said. “But I do think if oneperson’s action infringes on another, that’s where it should stop. Werequire tattoo parlors to use sterile needles and health food workersto wear hair nets and latex gloves. That’s all we’re asking for here.These owners need to take some responsibility.”
But the adult business owners think the bill is a solution to aproblem that doesn’t exist. They say their establishments haveexcellent safety records, are generally monitored by 24-hoursurveillance and have good relationships with local law enforcement.When counties or municipalities want to restrict adult businesseslocally, they can do so. A state law is a blunt instrument, they say.
“We’re one of the most highly regulated businesses in the stateoutside of nuclear power,” said Mike Ocello, owner of several clubs inSauget, Ill., and around the country.
Ocello’s group, the Association of Club Executives, is planning alegal challenge to the bill, should it become law. They’ve seized onthe fact that all legislation has a fiscal note attached to itoutlining the impact to the state budget. ACE says the note attached tothis bill — $100,000 — grossly underestimates the loss in sales tax,income withholding and other costs to the state. They claim that ifadult businesses are restricted as proposed, at least 60 percent ofthem would close, costing the state about
$2.7 million in lostsales tax and $720,000 in lost state withholding taxes and would putabout 1,800 people out of work. “If I came to this state with a newbusiness that would generate that number of jobs and that revenue,they’d give me a key to the state,” Ocello said. “Instead they want toput all these people out of work.”
The group has pooled money in a legal defense fund and plans to aska circuit court to issue a temporary restraining order preventing thelaw from taking effect in August. If that doesn’t work, they’ll plan aconstitutional challenge to the law. Judging from yesterday’s meeting,this fight has only just begun.

Tribune reporter T.J. Greaney’s column runs on Thursdays. Reach him at (573) 815-1719 or tjgreaney@columbiatribune.com.

Offline CriTTer

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2010, 10:54:54 PM »
good riddance  ((*(*&

Offline Lepard LLC

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2010, 12:24:09 AM »
That's all the strippers Missouri has? East St. Louis has that many alone. I like the guy Putnam who visits these porn shops during the day and takes pictures.. Right..

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2010, 01:51:52 AM »
This makes me wonder... whats next?

Bars?  Then what?  Maybe... guns?

They aren't exactly "wholesome" for American families.  I believe that that is a lot of the argument in this issue... that they are negative effects on our communities.

Are they really?  Compared to what?

I thought we lived in America... what happened?  The land of the free?  The land of the free... free for the few? Right?

I've seen more corruption and unwholesome values come out of a church and have a negative effect on communities than I ever have any strip club.

good riddance  ((*(*&

Offline darrellmaurina

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2010, 02:30:30 AM »
When I get done with dead deer, terminated colonels, missing people, a rape acquittal, a child pornographer going to jail, murder case updates, cannon replacements, more fights about roads and deputies and budgets, a proposed new hospital, and a whole ton of other backed-up things, I plan to deal with this story as well. This is an important issue for our area, perhaps more so than any other area in the state except Whiteman Air Force Base.

However, since bars were brought up, we need to note that bars are **ALREADY** regulated as to where they can locate, at least in cities with zoning. This comes up periodically when an existing bar closes down, doesn't reopen for a while, and new people want to come in and open it and they find out that it's too close to a church, school, or other listed building, and they can't reopen the bar.

If I understand correctly, this state law would impose location rules on strip clubs in unincorporated rural areas without countywide or township-based zoning comparable to what already exists in cities.

I do realize the rules go beyond that and include language targeted specifically at strip clubs, but the location issue appears to be comparable to what already exists for bars and a number of other uses within cities that have zoning.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

This makes me wonder... whats next?

Bars?  Then what?  Maybe... guns?

They aren't exactly "wholesome" for American families.  I believe that that is a lot of the argument in this issue... that they are negative effects on our communities.

Are they really?  Compared to what?

I thought we lived in America... what happened?  The land of the free?  The land of the free... free for the few? Right?

I've seen more corruption and unwholesome values come out of a church and have a negative effect on communities than I ever have any strip club.

Darrell Todd Maurina
Check out the Pulaski County Daily News online newspaper at
http://www.pulaskicountyweb.com
Cell: (573) 433.6733 * FAX: (573) 774-2349
Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/darrellmaurina/
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Offline tpgunbiz

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2010, 06:41:45 AM »
This makes me wonder... whats next?

Bars?  Then what?  Maybe... guns?

They aren't exactly "wholesome" for American families.  I believe that that is a lot of the argument in this issue... that they are negative effects on our communities.

Are they really?  Compared to what?

I thought we lived in America... what happened?  The land of the free?  The land of the free... free for the few? Right?

I've seen more corruption and unwholesome values come out of a church and have a negative effect on communities than I ever have any strip club.

I like how they compare it to tattoo shops and using new needles. Those of us with any pride have been doing that since day one.  I dont understand the comparison. What they are doing is closing down an industry, weather anyone believes its right or wrong doesnt matter. Thes women who do the dancing or stripping, rely on this as an income. Alot of these girls do not have the education or job skills needed to make the same amount of income at another job. And aside from the girls theres others who depend on the clubs for income. Security, Bartenders, DJ's ETC. People do spend money at these clubs because they want to go, Doesnt matter if I thinks its wrong, Which I despise strip clubs. I think making a living off of showing off your guts is disgusting. But I also believe in free trade and the right to choose weather or not to go to these establishments.
Biscuit

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2010, 11:02:23 PM »
This is something written by a dancer at one of the local strip clubs.  After Dark.  I'm just throwing this out there to speak a little for the side that hasn't yet been allowed to do so very much in this issue.



"All bible verses and moral obligations aside here are some pros and
cons pertaining to strip clubs.   
   
Pros:

They stimulate the economy, most dancers burn money like you
wouldn't believe and this money usually goes back into local businesses,
restaurants, and shopping malls. The average dancer probably spends
about $1,000 a month at these businesses.
   
They give people opportunities they most likely would not have
had otherwise. I know way too many single moms in this business that
would not otherwise be able to make rent, pay their bills, or give
their children decent things in life. This brings me to my next point...
   
It keeps the number of people using welfare down. These
same women stay off welfare and not have the need to use other state
funded financial assistance that your hard earned tax dollars paid for.
It's nearly impossible to support yourself and a child exclusively off
of a paycheck from a minimum wage job without any other form of
financial help.
   
Most strip clubs are safe, clean environments to work in. I,
myself, have been in and out of 5 different clubs (4 of them in Missouri)
in my 2 years working in this business and in each one I have never
felt that I ever needed to do anything I didn't want too nor had I
ever felt that my safety or well being had been compromised. I am sure
there are exceptions but from what I have seen the rules that the state
of Missouri already has in place to regulate these businesses are
adequate as long as the club enforces them properly.

Cons:

Prostitution. No club I have ever worked at has ever pushed
its girls to prostitute, endorsed prostitution, or even just said
"Eh, whatever" This sort of behavior is a pretty big No-No and everyone
knows it and any club i have worked at that caught their employees
doing or planning this sort of thing were immediately terminated from
their jobs. Unfortunately there are employees that, albeit, rarely get
away with prostitution. But you also have to think about this on a bigger
scale. Strip clubs aren't the only place this happens, "Lot lizards"
commonly frequent truck stops, there are girls prostituting all over
the streets in big cities. This is something that has been around since
the beginning of time. We probably won't be able to ever stop it
completely, but we're doing a pretty good job of keeping it out of
our place of work.

Creating more drunk drivers. Currently fully nude clubs in MO
don't serve alcohol so if anything our establishment allows people to
"sober up" before making the drive back home. However, semi nude clubs
are permitted to serve alcohol but I have to point out that most people
don't substitute going to the bar to go to the strip club. If people are going
to a semi nude club they are most likely going because they want to drink
therefor we are not creating more drunk drivers, we just may be the
hole-in-the-wall bar down the streets competition.

Noise pollution. Most clubs are located in more down town
commercial areas where "being loud" generally isn't an issue. However,
some are located closer to residential areas where this can be a
problem. This can easily be fixed by soundproofing, and contacting
your city's zoning committee to prevent future businesses from doing
the same.   

Strip clubs degrade women. You may think so, and that is
entirely your opinion, and I'm not going to tell you you're wrong.
I will tell you though, to ask the women who actually work at a
strip club and see what they tell you. Like I said before I have
never felt like I had to do something I didn't want to, and I think
it's probably more degrading to the men that come to these clubs
and spend the entirety of their paycheck over a 5 hour period of time
but hey, they came in on their own free will knowing what could happen
and going home broke is definitely a pretty big possibility.

This is just a small summary but as you can see the pros seem to outweigh
the cons especially with our economy in the shape it's in we are better
off keeping strip clubs around and running the way they currently are.
I'm also keeping religious views out of this debate. There is a reason
we have a separation of church and state. Not everyone is a Christian.
Not everyone conforms to your morals and beliefs. Religion and faith are
intimate things meant for the privacy of your home and to share with
fellow believers, it should not be used to infringe upon my freedoms."

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2010, 11:04:28 PM »
They compare tattoo parlors to strip clubs because it still sits on the side of the fence that isn't fully accepted by society and its views of what is right and wrong.

It carries an old stigma with it.  Its going away though... I'm sure you know that everyone and their grandmother has a tattoo now it seems.  LOL.

It still sits on an uneasy side of the fence of morality though... unfortunate as it may be... its reality.  It hasn't yet been accepted as an art form by mainstream society yet...

Give it a few years.

I like how they compare it to tattoo shops and using new needles. Those of us with any pride have been doing that since day one.  I dont understand the comparison. What they are doing is closing down an industry, weather anyone believes its right or wrong doesnt matter. Thes women who do the dancing or stripping, rely on this as an income. Alot of these girls do not have the education or job skills needed to make the same amount of income at another job. And aside from the girls theres others who depend on the clubs for income. Security, Bartenders, DJ's ETC. People do spend money at these clubs because they want to go, Doesnt matter if I thinks its wrong, Which I despise strip clubs. I think making a living off of showing off your guts is disgusting. But I also believe in free trade and the right to choose weather or not to go to these establishments.

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2010, 11:10:10 PM »
The scary parts of this bill aren't really the zoning issues... those are obviously in place for a reason.  I agree with the zoning issues.  Strip clubs shouldn't be next to schools or churches anymore than nightclubs or bars should be next to libraries or public parks full of children.

The scary parts of this bill are the parts that regulate the way the business operates... such as the closing at midnight and regulation of nudity and customer interactions.  Not to mention the damage that will be done to semi nude clubs that serve alcohol.  The main income in a fully nude club that cannot sell alcohol sits in the profit generated by lap dances... while the main profit in a semi-nude club (semi nude clubs are clubs that require pasties on the girls) are alcohol sales.  This bill gets rid of both of these items... effectively crippling both businesses and forcing them to go bankrupt.

When I get done with dead deer, terminated colonels, missing people, a rape acquittal, a child pornographer going to jail, murder case updates, cannon replacements, more fights about roads and deputies and budgets, a proposed new hospital, and a whole ton of other backed-up things, I plan to deal with this story as well. This is an important issue for our area, perhaps more so than any other area in the state except Whiteman Air Force Base.

However, since bars were brought up, we need to note that bars are **ALREADY** regulated as to where they can locate, at least in cities with zoning. This comes up periodically when an existing bar closes down, doesn't reopen for a while, and new people want to come in and open it and they find out that it's too close to a church, school, or other listed building, and they can't reopen the bar.

If I understand correctly, this state law would impose location rules on strip clubs in unincorporated rural areas without countywide or township-based zoning comparable to what already exists in cities.

I do realize the rules go beyond that and include language targeted specifically at strip clubs, but the location issue appears to be comparable to what already exists for bars and a number of other uses within cities that have zoning.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong.


Offline Digital Narcosis

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Offline fish

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2010, 12:37:06 AM »
you have to be religious to have morals?

sounds more like anything for a buck.

I believe it is a choice to go in or not. people will have to account for their actions. but residents around it should not have to tolerate a strip club in their neighborhood.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2010, 01:38:56 AM »
Fish, I pretty much agree with DN on this.  As as far as tolerating them in their neighborhoods, goes, whcih neighborhoods are affected here?  These clubs are situated in areas not associated with neighborhoods or even close to churches or schools.  Get off the "moral" highground Fish.  This is America and while we can't always agree, we do need to agree on freedom and the govt is restricting that freedom more and more each day.

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2010, 08:55:15 AM »
Your guns are next.

Offline fish

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2010, 05:53:51 PM »
reread my post. I didn't say there is anything wrong with going in a strip joint. it is a choice. it is also a legal business. as far as in a neighborhood. there are some that may not mind if big louies moved someplace more obscure. some zoning is important, that is why some things can't be right next to a school or church.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2010, 05:56:07 PM »
Your guns are next.

I doubt it.  But if they are then read my signature line.  That is not meant in jest I assure one and all.
 
http://www.thefiringline.com/HCI/molon_labe.htm

Offline Chas

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2010, 09:07:19 PM »
I wish they would bring back the semi nude strip bars you  could drink in them much more fun

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2010, 11:17:41 PM »
Zoning IS important and I agree with you on that one.

However, you'd have to tell St. Robert about that one... somewhere along the lines they never quite grasped the idea of city planning and zoning...

I think churches should have zoning rules also however... for reasons like parking and traffic congestion.  Some churches are very popular... to the point that parking isn't always available in the designated spots... so it spills out onto the road and causes a problem.

I think there was a story posted here about someone having bible study in their home and it causing a problem with parking and traffic on the street the home was located on.  I don't remember the details... but it was interesting.

reread my post. I didn't say there is anything wrong with going in a strip joint. it is a choice. it is also a legal business. as far as in a neighborhood. there are some that may not mind if big louies moved someplace more obscure. some zoning is important, that is why some things can't be right next to a school or church.

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2010, 11:18:47 PM »
Those still exist.  Check out the clubs in Springfield.  Most all of them are like that.

However, if this bill passes... your going to have to take your tax dollars to the clubs on the Illinois side of St. Louis.

I wish they would bring back the semi nude strip bars you  could drink in them much more fun

Offline Lepard LLC

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2010, 11:44:30 PM »
Quit telling people about my secret hangouts.
 
 
Those still exist.  Check out the clubs in Springfield.  Most all of them are like that.

However, if this bill passes... your going to have to take your tax dollars to the clubs on the Illinois side of St. Louis.

Offline littlebit

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2010, 03:21:22 AM »
Those still exist.  Check out the clubs in Springfield.  Most all of them are like that.

However, if this bill passes... your going to have to take your tax dollars to the clubs on the Illinois side of St. Louis.


Quit telling people about my secret hangouts.
 
 



Be smart, spend your money in Pulaski County. Shopping elswhere helps fix their roads..
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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2010, 03:45:51 AM »


Be smart, spend your money in Pulaski County. Shopping elswhere helps fix their roads..
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Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2010, 09:36:06 PM »
Even KY3 has jumped on this story now...
New Missouri law bans stripping at strip clubshttp://www.ky3.com/news/local/97179874.html


Story Published: Jun 25, 2010 at 2:55 PM CDT

Story Updated: Jun 25, 2010 at 2:59 PM CDT
JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. -- Strip clubs and adult stores in the state will have to keep their employees clothed, minors out and doors shut after midnight under a new law. Gov. Jay Nixon signed legislation on Friday that imposes new restrictions on sexually oriented businesses effective Aug. 28.

The law bans full nudity, alcohol, patrons younger than 18 and touching between seminude employees and customers. New strip clubs and adult stores will have to be at least 1,000 feet from homes, schools, churches, libraries, parks, childcare centers and other sexually oriented businesses.

The MIssouri Supreme Court struck down a similar law approved by the Legislature in 2005. That legislation also prompted a federal investigation into how it was handled by the House.

Critics contend the rules will hurt the state's economy.

Sexual business law is SB586

----Hey Darrel... when are you going to run a story about this?  After the clubs shut down?  This law will effect this area quite a bit...


Offline Lepard LLC

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2010, 10:40:02 PM »
I wonder how Louie will survive. No trainees?
 
 
Even KY3 has jumped on this story now...
New Missouri law bans stripping at strip clubshttp://www.ky3.com/news/local/97179874.html


Story Published: Jun 25, 2010 at 2:55 PM CDT

Story Updated: Jun 25, 2010 at 2:59 PM CDT
JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. -- Strip clubs and adult stores in the state will have to keep their employees clothed, minors out and doors shut after midnight under a new law. Gov. Jay Nixon signed legislation on Friday that imposes new restrictions on sexually oriented businesses effective Aug. 28.

The law bans full nudity, alcohol, patrons younger than 18 and touching between seminude employees and customers. New strip clubs and adult stores will have to be at least 1,000 feet from homes, schools, churches, libraries, parks, childcare centers and other sexually oriented businesses.

The MIssouri Supreme Court struck down a similar law approved by the Legislature in 2005. That legislation also prompted a federal investigation into how it was handled by the House.

Critics contend the rules will hurt the state's economy.

Sexual business law is SB586

----Hey Darrel... when are you going to run a story about this?  After the clubs shut down?  This law will effect this area quite a bit...

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2010, 10:53:52 PM »
He won't... and a lot of his employees (which I am not one of contrary to what some might believe) will have to figure out new careers, and I'm not just talking about dancers either...

Our unemployment rate is already pretty shitty... its too bad it has to get worse.  The effects of this will effect many many things.  People don't really realize all the services that strip clubs require...

They pay all the same monthly bills that everyone else does and then some... water, power, rent, property taxes, sales taxes, food deliveries, beer deliveries etc. etc.... not to mention the money that their employees get that will no longer be going into the local economies.

Some people hate strippers and the cash that they make and don't think that they deserve to be making money like that... BUT... I've certainly never seen any business owners refusing to TAKE that money when they need to spend it.

I wonder how Louie will survive. No trainees?
 
 

Offline tpgunbiz

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2010, 08:35:22 AM »
Very good point,DN, Nobody complains about the tax dollars generated or the dollars put back into the community by the Dancers and workers alike. I have taken stands against the industry but have a newfound respect for all involved because theres going to be a mess of women on welfare, kids are going to suffer, Educations lost, Lots of local tax dollars lost, The economy is already suffering to the point even we are now feeling the losses, and I always thought no matter what soldiers would get tattooed. Were all feeling the pinch without the government coming in and taking peoples abilities to make a living. If they did to us what they are doing to you guys, Id have to get a job in graphic arts at best, if I was lucky, and more likely I would be another walmart  or lowes employee hoping for a rung on a ladder. Tax dollars are shortening everywhere, and putting people out of work that have jobs regardless of who likes it or dont.....isnt going to help the economy spring back.
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Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2010, 05:46:26 PM »

Offline kari

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2010, 05:53:55 PM »
Does this Bill include private clubs?
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Offline matrsnot

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2010, 07:52:34 PM »
DN has my support on this.  Nobody is being forced to go to these clubs.  Strictly voluntary.  The legislature is trying to legislate morality to the citizens. 

Offline Chas

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Re: House Bill 586
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2010, 09:57:34 PM »
DN has my support on this as well. And like matrsnot said.  I’m surprised that Louie’s is making it with rick. Lstm= laughing silently to myself