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Author Topic: God did NOT create the universe  (Read 55058 times)

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Offline dixonbob

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God did NOT create the universe
« on: September 02, 2010, 12:50:18 PM »

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LONDON (Reuters) – God did not create the universe and the "Big Bang" was an inevitable consequence of the laws of physics, the eminent British theoretical physicist Stephen [color=rgb(230, 123, 0) !important][/color][color=rgb(54, 99, 136) !important]Hawking[/color][color=rgb(230, 123, 0) !important][/color][/font] argues in a new book.
In "The Grand Design," co-authored with U.S. physicist Leonard Mlodinow, Hawking says a new series of theories made a creator of the universe redundant, according to the Times newspaper which published extracts on Thursday.
"Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist," Hawking writes.
"It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going."
Hawking, 68, who won global recognition with his 1988 book "A Brief History of Time," an account of the origins of the universe, is renowned for his work on black holes, cosmology and [color=rgb(230, 123, 0) !important][/color][color=rgb(54, 99, 136) !important][/size]quantum gravity[/color][color=rgb(230, 123, 0) !important][/color].
Since 1974, the scientist has worked on marrying the two cornerstones of modern physics -- Albert Einstein's General Theory of Relativity, which concerns gravity and large-scale phenomena, and quantum theory, which covers subatomic particles.
His latest comments suggest he has broken away from previous views he has expressed on religion. Previously, he wrote that the laws of physics meant it was simply not necessary to believe that God had intervened in the Big Bang.
He wrote in A Brief History ... "If we discover a complete theory, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason -- for then we should know the mind of God."
In his latest book, he said the 1992 discovery of a planet orbiting another star other than the Sun helped deconstruct the view of the father of physics Isaac Newton that the universe could not have arisen out of chaos but was created by God.
"That makes the coincidences of our planetary conditions -- the single Sun, the lucky combination of Earth-Sun distance and solar mass, far less remarkable, and far less compelling evidence that the Earth was carefully designed just to please us human beings," he writes.
Hawking, who is only able to speak through a computer-generated voice synthesizer, has a neuro muscular dystrophy that has progressed over the years and left him almost completely paralyzed.
He began suffering the disease in his early 20s but went on to establish himself as one of the world's leading scientific authorities, and has also made guest appearances in "Star Trek" and the cartoons "Futurama" and "The Simpsons."
Last year he announced he was stepping down as Cambridge University's Lucasian Professor of Mathematics, a position once held by Newton and one he had held since 1979.
"The Grand Design" is due to go on sale next week.
FOUND the ignore button. Ha Ha

Offline kari

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2010, 03:31:35 PM »
Very interesting read Dixonbob!  Thank  you for sharing.
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Offline fish

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2010, 05:45:15 PM »
any way you slice it, the materials or the process had to come from something. There is no other logical explanation than God created all. The big bang may have been how all was created, but God provided the catyalyst.

Offline kari

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2010, 08:25:49 PM »
You apparently didn't read the article, hence your post.
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Offline Coyote

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2010, 08:48:10 PM »
Stephen Hawking is not the all-knowing, all-seeing, all powerful wizard he thinks he is.  He's just a man with an opinion.
....and that night as the moon crossed the mountain, one more Coyote was heard...

Offline medicm

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2010, 09:30:33 PM »
Stephen Hawking is not the all-knowing, all-seeing, all powerful wizard he thinks he is.  He's just a man with an opinion.

And I'm guessing that since "he wasn't born that way", his opinion doesn't matter to you, right?

Offline kari

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2010, 09:54:27 PM »
Stephen Hawking is an amazing man, regardless of what you may feel about his theories, opinions, observations.  We have a number of fascinating scientists.... two of my favorites are Dr. Michio Kaku, a theoretical physicist, astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson.  Heaven for me, being in the same room with these men, listening to them talk.  Hell, I wouldn't care if they were discussing football, just to be in the same room with these men.......WOW! Damn, just the thought of that has my heart racing!

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Offline Coyote

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2010, 01:23:50 PM »
 :offtopic:

And I'm guessing that since "he wasn't born that way", his opinion doesn't matter to you, right?
....and that night as the moon crossed the mountain, one more Coyote was heard...

Offline freethinker

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2010, 02:42:25 PM »
Stephen Hawking is not the all-knowing, all-seeing, all powerful wizard he thinks he is.  He's just a man with an opinion.

and how do you know he's not in fact an all powerful wizard?

and what makes you think that he considers himself an all knowing, all seeing, all powerful wizard?  you imagine he fancies himself a god eh?
you'd think he would have done something about being paralyzed and having to talk through a computer by now if he was....

Offline kari

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2010, 03:27:52 PM »
A religious person may look at Stephen Hawking as a "sign" from G_D.  Diagnosed with ALS at age 21, he has lived for over 45 years, when most die within 5 years of being diagnosed (some live a bit longer).  Stephen Hawking has survived, and continued on with his work.  Even with his most recent, well publicized statement, religious people are able to see his studies, and merge it with their belief in a G_D.  While many tried to insist that creation was "intelligent" design, everything having a cause...ie. the earth was made in such a way as to sustain life, others see G_D as giving the "opportunity" for life, the potential for life.  We may have named the science of physics, but religious people see the nature of physics as G_D created/inspired.  Man, puts limitations on their G_D(s).  One theory of G_D is that all things make up G_D, or that all things, living and not, has G_D within it.  Going further with that thought, we could say gravity has G_D in it, nature created by G_D also has G_D in it.  Just like a fetus, which is a POTENTIAL life, the universe was given that same opportunity, to POTENTIALLY develop life.  A fetus is not a life, but everything is there for it to become a life, just like the universe.  A fetus can be rejected from the woman's body, for a number of reasons, and hence does not become a life.  Worlds can have what is needed to potentially sustain life, may even start to form potential life (fetus), yet for some reason, life does not begin.  This is why the "intelligent" design theory can not hold it's own against theories such as Stephen Hawking's.  Does this knowledge shake the faith of a person who truly believes in a G_D?  No, not at all, it simply reinforces belief, but DOES make one see how MAN has created G_D in his own image.  Does this knowledge screw with most religious doctrines, HELL yes, and THAT is actually what upsets people, and their "religious leaders"!
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Offline contemplating

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2010, 06:35:18 PM »
@ fish - "any way you slice it, the materials or the process had to come from something."

Had that thought for some years myself.  Then it occured to me, the "something from nothing" counterpoint would have to apply to god as well...... i.e. "He" had to come from "something" as well.......

If we then take the part about being created in his image literally......we have some serious issues.

As for Stephen Hawking, my wife and I watched a special of his recently.  We both thought he had passed away.....anyway, he is a brilliant man.  Someday his work will be as revered as Newton's, Einstein's et ales.  The bright ones are always ahead of their times.  They are always the ones poo-pooed by both their peers and the public alike.

Socrates, Plato, .....Christ
"In order to be a leader of men, a man has to receive an education in his own country, among his own people, and to grow up in surroundings steeped with the traditions and psychology of his countrymen.  Not only did Western education not fulfill that condition, but it tended to wean a young man from the traditions and customs of his country."

King Abdulaziz ibn Saud...circa 1930
Cited by Ronald Lacey in "The Kingdom:  Arabia and the House of Saud"

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2010, 09:37:51 PM »
Yea... he's just a guy with an opinion... and an IQ of over 160...

eh, what does he know!

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2010, 09:39:07 PM »
Why not?  You believe in an all-knowing, all-seeing, all powerful wizard riding around on a cloud...  LOL

Stephen Hawking is not the all-knowing, all-seeing, all powerful wizard he thinks he is.  He's just a man with an opinion.

Offline fish

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2010, 02:01:46 AM »
I suppose he has all the formulas for creating the universe? he can explain why natural selection didn't work?

God has always been. that is what makes Him God. believe as you wish, but I haven't seen a recipe to make the earth the earth, beer yes, but not the ingredients.

Offline medicm

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2010, 04:48:56 AM »
Maybe Hawking IS God, just reincarnated in human form to educate those lacking scientific knowledge! 
Fish- if you are SO bent on minimizing Hawking's theories, do you think Socrates, Plato, Newton, and all other notorious scientists are just idiots too?  You seem to feel that "Goddidit" can explain everything.  Open your eyes!
 

Offline okie the thread killer

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2010, 04:53:48 AM »
Maybe Hawking IS God, just reincarnated in human form to educate those lacking scientific knowledge! 
Fish- if you are SO bent on minimizing Hawking's theories, do you think Socrates, Plato, Newton, and all other notorious scientists are just idiots too?  You seem to feel that "Goddidit" can explain everything.  Open your eyes!
 


his eyes will not open till god tells them to...he has no control over his life.
I have it on good authority that the Hokey-Pokey really IS what it's all about.

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2010, 10:02:02 AM »
Why do we have to be so arrogant as a species to dismiss anything we cannot yet explain as something "divine?"

I guess that puts us in the clear as being "lacking" in any sense... because you know... "goddidit" so we don't even have to TRY to understand it.

THAT is all god is... human arrogance... we couldn't figure everything out... so we made a reason WHY we couldn't figure everything out...

Its like someone rewriting the rules of math because they cannot understand long division... LOL.

I suppose he has all the formulas for creating the universe? he can explain why natural selection didn't work?

God has always been. that is what makes Him God. believe as you wish, but I haven't seen a recipe to make the earth the earth, beer yes, but not the ingredients.

Offline 2CardJohnE

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2010, 03:01:30 PM »
We can rely on the laws of physics to explain the physical world as it exists. That is what physics is all about after all. What we cannot do is rely on them to explain how something that did not exist was made by the very nature of those laws. Far from leading in the direction of saying there is not need for God, more and more evidence from the realm of physics is actually supporting the need for God behind it all. In the end the laws of the universe will ultimately point us to the law-giver.
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Offline shadylane

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2010, 02:50:12 AM »
It seems this debate has become the chicken or the egg problem. Did god make the universe? Or did the preacher who resides in the universe make god.
What if there was no beginning or end? There wouldn't be a need for a creator. More than one religion assumes every thing goes in a circle. Others assume everything is linear with a beginning and end. Sadly they also look forward to an apocalypse were the universe is destroyed.....
 
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Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2010, 08:50:34 AM »
It just irks me that we are so arrogant that we have to have god there to be able to explain something we can't figure out to get a free pass at not looking limited.

Offline fish

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2010, 03:13:45 PM »
not limited at all. somethings are plain to see it took a God to create. God has always been. the reason people choose not to believe that is that they try to explain or rationalize in human terms. how can we think on the level of God?

It is great to figure out how things work. it is great to study physics and other sciences. that improves our quality of life. but in the end where did the elements in physics come from? where did all the basic ingredients in any science in any creation come from? everything has a beginning, from God. and God has always been.

Offline Digital Narcosis

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2010, 06:13:17 AM »
I don't need "god" to explain things...   I am not so arrogant as to not think that we as a species can be limited and not able to yet understand something.

Human arrogance created god.

Someone asked their leaders one day to explain some things and they couldn't... so they dreamed up god... and the rest is history.

not limited at all. somethings are plain to see it took a God to create. God has always been. the reason people choose not to believe that is that they try to explain or rationalize in human terms. how can we think on the level of God?

It is great to figure out how things work. it is great to study physics and other sciences. that improves our quality of life. but in the end where did the elements in physics come from? where did all the basic ingredients in any science in any creation come from? everything has a beginning, from God. and God has always been.

Offline kari

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2010, 03:01:03 PM »
The interesting thing concerning G_D, and the Holy scriptures is..... there is NO description of G_D.  Man created G_D in his imagine, and with that created what G_D wants/needs/desires.  Man is so arrogant as to create G_D with feelings, with a sexual identity, with wants, needs, etc.... these are all human emotions, identity, not that of a G_D.
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Offline freethinker

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2010, 07:46:03 PM »
he can explain why natural selection didn't work?


what makes you believe natural selection "didn't work"?

Offline What_The?

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2010, 01:10:53 AM »
Why do we have to be so arrogant as a species to dismiss anything we cannot yet explain as something "divine?"

I guess that puts us in the clear as being "lacking" in any sense... because you know... "goddidit" so we don't even have to TRY to understand it.

THAT is all god is... human arrogance... we couldn't figure everything out... so we made a reason WHY we couldn't figure everything out...

Its like someone rewriting the rules of math because they cannot understand long division... LOL.


I think the search for the divine isn't arrogance, its a longing, a search for that "something".

In the grand scheme of things people can, without much arrogance, consider themselves "special" amongst all of the little critters and creatures in the world, if for no other reason than the fact that, universally, throughout the world and through all of history, (s)he has searched for a meaning to life beyond eating, shitting and reproducing.

Just because your answer to the Great Question is that "there is no God," doesn't mean that everyone who comes up with a different answer is arrogant, stupid, delusional, attempting to overtake the government/Constitution, etc. 

Painting people with the same broad brush works both ways.

And aside from using a calculator or computer, I've found at least two alternative methods for doing long division in about 2 seconds of checking.
"There are plenty of good reasons for fighting, but no good reason ever to hate without reservation, to imagine that God almighty Himself hates with you, too. Where's evil? It's that large part of every man that wants to hate without limit, that wants to hate with God on its side." - Kurt Vonnegut

Offline prE4chEr

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2010, 04:14:24 AM »
(\__/)
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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2010, 07:54:10 PM »
In the dark ages, people had a god for everything that they did not understand or could not reason. Lightning could not be explained, so they created a God for that. Flood, a water god did it. We have over the years eliminated the belief in those Gods because all of those things are now explained. Now we are down to a 1/2 dozen major religions (yes they branch out to thousands, but most all led to one major one) and most of these are there to explain the one thing we have all wondered for thousands of years, where did we all come from. Since the big bang theory and the theory of evolution are just that, theories, they have not been proven to the point that they kill the religions that debunk them.
While I do believe in a superior being, because my heart tell me that there is one, I don't believe in the writings on the new testament, as I while think they are great stories with profound morale lessons, I do not find them factual. The same can be said about Confucius and the Muslim teachings. Maybe someday someone will finally prove these theories, until religion as we know it will exist. Or who know, maybe we will all die, and actually find out there was a God of Thunder, and we all do go to Valhalla to rest.
 
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Offline mark

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2011, 01:17:02 PM »
  I recently watched Hawking's take on the universe: a show called "curiosity" where he claims there is no God. My thoughts HE'S AN IDIOT! The first half hour of the show was about the earth not being the center of the universe because it revolves around the sun. A five year old can prove this wrong. Put a blue dot on a piece of paper (this represents the earth) Now draw a circle around it (this represents our observable universe) Now imagine the whole thing orbiting the sun. The earth remains in the center. An infinite universe (as Steven Hawking believes) would have its center where ever you happen to be when your a lookin at it! I can easily discount the second half of his epiphany but we'll save that for another time.  -Mark's back
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
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Offline fumbled

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2011, 01:54:18 PM »
I've read every post in this thread, and it brings back to mind two great quotes.

"Seeing isn't believing, believing is seeing."


"If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes?"

How can anyone dismiss God? I challenge you to read the Bible, even if you don't want to believe it. After you've read it, compare it to science, you would actually be amazed at how much evidence from the Bible still exists in our world today. A lot of people fail to realize that the Bible is a historical book based on reality. Ancient historians that were witness to things going on in the world, compiled it into books, and letters. We call that the Bible today. The Bible is literally a collection of History, Poetry, and prophecies of things past and things present. Read the signs of the last days. How could any one person know the future? Lucky guess? In that much detail? The Bible says that in the last days there will be a one world currency. Has this already happened? Absolutely! Remember the Euro? The Bible predicts earthquakes in divers places. Has this happened? Absolutely! Seismologists have noted a serious increase in earthquake activity in recent years. Keep reading, and look around you. It's hard to dismiss what was written hundreds of years ago, coming true today.

Offline littlebit

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Re: God did NOT create the universe
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2011, 02:01:42 PM »
I like quotes too!

Here's a good one!

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
-Stephen Roberts
Some people are like Slinkies... Not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.

I'd give my left arm to be ambidextrous...


“The truth is, everyone is going to end up hurting you. You just have to find the ones who are worth suffering for.”