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Author Topic: SCIENCE SAYS ... BURY JESUS  (Read 3687 times)

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Offline Lepard LLC

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« on: March 02, 2007, 04:50:15 PM »


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Oh goody, another lovely round of that increasingly popular parlor game, "Science Says." And just in time for Lent! James Cameron, the masterful storyteller who directed "Titantic," is clearly banking on the special media power this game has when someone (preferably a scientist, but a Hollywood director in a pinch will do) asserts that what science says ... is that the Bible is wrong.

Science vs. religion, round 457!

Science says Jesus married Mary Magdelene, produced a son named Judah, and the whole family of Nazarenes is buried in a tomb in Jerusalem. We have the mitochondrial DNA and the Discovery Channel documentary to prove it!

When science and "The Da Vinci Code" start saying the same thing, you have a marketing powerhouse. Especially when Christians, bless 'em, can be counted on to rise up in futile indignation, which public display of emotion just feeds so beautifully into the original storyline: Intellectually challenged religious zealots feebly dispute what science says. POW! BAM!

"It's going to get a lot of Christians with their knickers in a knot unnecessarily," Ben Witherington, a Bible scholar at Ashbury Theological Seminary, told The New York Times. Because who but conservative Christians, bless 'em, still wear knickers, much less knot them in anxiety over the latest scientific discoveries?

The filmmakers' DNA tests suggest that the "Yeshua" remains and the "Mariamene e Mara" remains (aka "Mary Magdalene," through the complex theories of a Harvard professor) were not related on their mother's side. So who knows? Heck, they could have been married, right? The DNA proves it, unless, of course, they were related on their father's side, or Mariamene e Mara was married to or maybe just the daughter or sister of someone else in the tomb. Amos Kloner, a former Jerusalem district archeologist who examined the tomb in 1980, calls the allegedly new evidence "not serious."

But the Science Says game works so well that people play it with the same dogmatic fervor they once played The Pope Says, and for a similar reason: Because if science really says something, you no longer need brook the irritation of tolerating dissent.

In a recent column on a U.N. report on climate change, Ellen Goodman noted that only 25 percent of college-educated Republicans believe global warming is caused by humans, while 75 percent of college-educated Democrats do. The sociology of truth is a fascinating phenomenon. But Ellen the Scientific sees only proof of conservative dogmatism: "The certainty of the human role is now somewhere over 90 percent. Which is about as certain as scientists ever get. ... (G)lobal warming deniers are now on a par with Holocaust deniers." That is to say people who disagree with Ellen are either very bad or stark raving mad, and either way she can dismiss them.

But of course Goodman is quite wrong about one thing: Scientists are far more than 90 percent certain about most scientific truths. It is social scientists who aim for 90 percent (or 95 percent) certainty, and the large margin for error -- a 1-in-10 chance by the authors' own estimate that the report is simply wrong about the cause of global warming -- is a telltale sign that what we have here is not a hard scientific fact, but a scientific judgment, a possibility, a probability perhaps, but hardly an undeniable fact like the Holocaust.

The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review published an interview this week with Timothy Ball, a dissenting climatologist who thinks sun-spots, not carbon emissions, best explain the 500-year trend toward global warming. (You can read what he says here: It's an important debate, but the most important thing about the debate is to notice when the Science Says card is being played inappropriately as a way to shut down debate: "As soon as people start saying something's settled, it's usually that they don't want to talk about it anymore," notes Ball. "A consensus is not a scientific fact." Amen to that.


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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2007, 03:16:44 AM »
This will open a big can of worms......


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« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2007, 03:34:35 PM »
More fine examples of the age old truth - knowledge power.  Doesn't have to be right or wrong by scientific proof, theology or even common sense standards.  Just right in the minds of those believing - the masses.  The church doesn't have the power base it once had to rule the masses.  But the media does.

I worked for a Warrant years ago that had his own "hooahh" when a job went right.  "Once again science and technology have overcome fear and superstition".

Hmmm - fear and subjugation - somewhat synonymous with "political correctness"?  Say it isn't so.

Offline earthygirl04

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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2007, 04:45:52 AM »
I heard about this on the news last week, and I can't help but say,..... If it's true, I want solid proof I can see, feel, and know, (without any doubt) that this is Jesus Christ the Son of God we are talking about here.
I'm just one of those people that really have to be confronted with positive proof I can see for myself, before I believe it.
"Being Happy Doesn't Mean Everything's Perfect,......
It Means You Decide To See Beyond The Imperfections."

Offline ghost_of_notsniw

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« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2007, 01:06:28 AM »
That's pretty funny, "requiring proof" of something that is based entirely  on faith.

Offline littlejohn

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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2007, 06:17:01 PM »
I heard about this on the news last week, and I can't help but say,..... If it's true, I want solid proof I can see, feel, and know, (without any doubt) that this is Jesus Christ the Son of God we are talking about here.
I'm just one of those people that really have to be confronted with positive proof I can see for myself, before I believe it.

Now that is what I call a good, healthy "Show Me" attitude - nothing wrong with that at all !!
By the way earthygirl -- nice blog  :)
You can take the boy out of the Ozarks, but you can't take the Ozarks out of the boy.

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt". - Mark Twain

Offline Kickstand

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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2007, 08:12:54 PM »
Sometimes one must just believe.  I'm not one for preaching but I know how hard it is these days to keep the faith, you know with that Jim Bakker and all.  I just hope this doesn't ruin a child's Easter. 
I luv em all . . .

Offline Digital Narcosis

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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2007, 09:39:06 PM »
I got yer Jesus right here!!!


Offline Kitty Cat

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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2007, 03:40:52 PM »
For those who may still be trying to sort out their views on God, May I make some suggestions....

See the big picture

Firstly, keep a proper perspective on the importance of respective issues. The Bible contains around 1,300 chapters. It would be silly to reject the central theme of it because you disagreed with the way some Christians interpret one of those chapters!

Focus on Jesus

Secondly, focus on Jesus. The central theme of the Bible, and hence Christianity, is that God has made himself known to us supremely by entering human history in the person of Jesus and taking upon himself our human nature. The Bible declares that he lived a perfect human life, that he died on the cross for our sins to reconcile us to God, that he rose from the dead, that he now reigns as Lord, and that he will one day return to judge the world.

This is not the only way he has revealed truths about himself. The Bible states very clearly that God speaks through nature. "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands" (Psalm 19:1). "God's eternal power and character cannot be seen. But from the beginning of creation, God has shown what these are like by all he has made. That's why those people don't have any excuse. They know about God, but they don't honour him or even thank him" (Romans 1:20,21).

However, God's revelation of himself through nature does not tell us all we need to know about him. It speaks of his power, but not of his love. It does not tell us whether he is personally interested in us, or how we can have an intimate relationship with him. But if Jesus is all that the Bible declares him to be, then God has revealed himself to us in a manner that does tell us all we need to know.

Keep an open mind

Thirdly, don't allow prejudices about Christianity, whatever their source, to prevent you from looking at evidence. Dr Paley said:

There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. The principle is contempt prior to examination.

A good scientist, if he is to arrive at truth, must examine evidence. The history of science is littered with examples of how the discovery of truth has been delayed because scientists, for one reason or another, refused to consider evidence. Jesus is a historical figure. We have very good evidence for trusting the accuracy of the records we have about him. If he was not the divine Son of God he claimed to be, he must be the most remarkable con man in history. If you are interested in exploring the evidence for these things further, you may like to read the first four articles on this site; THE BIBLE Can we trust a book written 2000 years ago? EYEWITNESS Did the writers of the New Testament get their picture of Jesus right? GOD - MAN Is Jesus really God? RESURRECTION Did Jesus really rise from the dead?


Fourthly, be prepared to experiment. If a scientist develops a theory he must be prepared to put it to the test. This may involve a step of faith. In Christianity, as in science, faith comes before certainty. We have enough evidence to point us in a certain direction. As we put it to the test, the evidence increases (or otherwise). Faith is not contrary to evidence, but is prepared to trust beyond where the evidence can go. In fact, faith sometimes comes before any evidence at all. A good example from science is Enrico Fermi's postulation of the existence of what he called a "neutrino", a quantity of energy that had neither positive or negative charge and no mass. This caused a considerable scandal in the field of science because no one could capture it. Some considered the whole idea a fraud and thought it might even be intellectually dishonest to continue to discuss its role in atomic physics. However, though there was no experimental evidence for its existence, some scientists persisted "in faith", and eventually evidence was forthcoming.

"Proof" is something that comes later and it is interesting that "proof"" is a concept that scientists are much less likely to use today. Christian apologist Ravi Zacharias, in A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism, says:

God has put enough into the world to make faith in Him a most reasonable thing, and He has left enough out to make it impossible to live by sheer reason or observation alone.

A useful experiment could be something like this. Read through one of the gospel stories in a modern translation of the New Testament. As you do, tell God that whatever doubts you may have, you are open to any truth he may teach you and that you will follow wherever that truth leads. Ask yourself such questions as: Does this have the ring of truth about it? Could Jesus really have been invented by a group of enthusiasts? Was he really God? If not, who was he? What right did he have to make the personal claims on our lives that he obviously did? Is he worthy of my trust?

If you wish to take the experiment further with a step of real commitment, then you may wish to pray a prayer something like this:

God, whatever my doubts I am willing to trust you.

If Jesus really came into this world to die for my sins, then I accept his forgiveness.

I submit to him as the Lord of my life.

I invite you to come into my life and to give me the assurance of your love.

I ask you to mould me into what you want me to be and to fulfil whatever purpose you may have for me.

Help me to grow in my understanding of your truth and to live worthy of your love.

Should you take this step of faith, then continue reading through the New Testament, asking God to reveal himself to you as you do. My expectation is that you will find that the experience of the Holy Spirit in your heart will join with the growing understanding of God in your head, to give you the certainty that you are on the right path. Dr Nelles Silverthorne, a Canadian paediatrician who committed his life to Jesus Christ at a Billy Graham Crusade, said:

To a man of science, it [conversion] is the most convincing experiment I've ever done.

Professor Simpson, who in 1891 was elected President of the Royal College of Physicians, said in his farewell address on July 28, 1905:

I do not know in what mood of pessimism I might have stood before you today had it not been that ere the dew of youth had dried from off me I made friends with the Sinless Son of Man, Who is the well-head of the stream that vitalises all advancing civilisation, and Who claims to be the First and the Last and the Living One: Who was dead and is alive evermore, and has the keys of Death and the Unseen. My experience compels me to own that claim.

He was, of course, speaking of his experience of Jesus, of whom such phrases are used in the New Testament. Having thus experienced the reality of this living God, you may well begin to view this wonderful universe that he has created in a new light. Astronomer Hugh Ross, in an article in Christianity Today, put it like this:

How awesome to consider that God caused the big bang and all its components, including exotic matter and over 10 billion trillion stars, for the sake of knowing and being known by us in an eternal love relationship. The thought both reduces me to a speck of dust and lifts me up to the heavens.

Finally, if you do reject the fact that God exists, and that he is personally interested in you and wants to enter into a personal relationship with you, check on your motives for such an opinion. Often the reason we reject something that may be true has more to do with matters of the heart than of the mind. The agnostic, Aldous Huxley, once wrote with considerable honesty:

I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning: consequently assumed it had none; and was able without any difficulties to find gratifying reasons for this assumption. Those who detect no meaning in the world generally do so because, for one reason or another, it suits their books that the world should be meaningless. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom.


I remember hearing a story about a man who as a student, over forty years ago, met with an elderly Anglican clergyman in Dublin, Ireland. During their conversation, the man asked him how he had found a personal faith in Christ. He explained that as a young man he had been sceptical about Christianity, claiming to believe that there was no God. One evening he got into discussion with a Christian who pointed him to Psalm 14, which begins, "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God'." Having read it, he went outside and looked up at the stars in the heavens. At that point it dawned on him that he had indeed been a fool! His conversion to Christ followed as a matter of course.

"If you think strongly enough you will be forced by science to the belief in God"
Lord Kevin

Lord Kelvin, one of the most prominent scientists of the latter half of the nineteenth century, declared, "If you think strongly enough you will be forced by science to the belief in God." The insights science has given us over this last generation as to the amazing structure and development of the universe provide even greater reasons for faith.

Bestselling novelist, Susan Howatch, had houses in several countries and drove a Porsche and a Mercedes. She said that after the break-up of her marriage, "God seized me by the scruff of the neck", and she became a Christian. Recently she gave 1 million to Cambridge University to finance a lectureship in theology and natural science, having come to the conclusion that science and theology were "two aspects of the truth".

We need science. Above all we need Jesus Christ. The two happen to be on the same side.

Offline Kitty Cat

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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2007, 03:51:54 PM »
Careful DN...... I don't think you're going to like his company!! LOL

The Devil, also known as Satan, is real. Though he is a spirit-being without a fleshly body, the devil is a real person. (God the Father, the Holy Spirit and the angels are other spirit-beings who do not have fleshly bodies. They are all real persons, too.)

We can know that Satan is a real person since: (1) He is mentioned along with other real persons, including Jesus Christ. (2) He is described with personal characteristics such as speaking, tempting and lying. (3) The devil is one of several angels who sinned and were punished by God. (4) God has prepared an eternal place for Satan and his angels. See Matthew 4:1-11; 25:41; John 8:44; and 2 Peter 2:4.

The devil is evil and desires people to become evil like him. Further, Satan will be punished forever in hell and he wants everyone to suffer the same punishment. In a figure, Scripture views the devil as a vicious lion stalking his prey. "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Peter 5:8).

Fortunately, the power of Satan today is limited by God. See 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6. Therefore, mankind is able to resist the influence of Satan. "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" (James 4:7).

However, evil people are servants of the devil and they influence others around them to become evil also. The apostle Paul called a man a "child of the devil" (Acts 13:6-12) for trying to prevent another man from hearing the Word of God. Sometimes men who serve Satan appear to be righteous. "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works" (2 Corinthians 11:14-15).

When anyone practices sin, he is serving the devil. "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil" (1 John 3:8). To turn away from righteous living is said in Scripture to be turning to Satan. "For some are already turned aside after Satan" (1 Timothy 5:15). Sadly, many people turn from God to Satan. "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1).

The devil is real and his evil influence is powerful. Many people are also evil and are children of the devil. However, remember, Satan can be resisted. Therefore, each of us has the personal responsibility: (1) to resist the devil, (2) to not practice sin, and (3) to submit to the will of God. Daily study of the New Testament will help one to accomplish these three goals.