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Author Topic: Bad crime tip  (Read 7475 times)

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Offline dixonbob

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Bad crime tip
« on: December 18, 2007, 09:26:17 AM »

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Minneapolis police raid goes awry By STEVE KARNOWSKI, Associated Press WriterMon Dec 17, 10:14 PM ET Two officers who raided an innocent family's house on a bad tip were shot at and returned fire, but no one was injured, a police spokesman said.
Vang Khang said Monday that he grabbed his hunting gun to protect himself, his wife and his six children when they heard someone burst through the back door early Sunday. He fired three shots, hitting two members of the SWAT team, but they were unhurt because of their bulletproof vests and helmets.
Officers returned fire, but nobody in the house was injured. Police released Khang after taking his statement.
All six of the children, ages 3 to 15, were home at the time.
Lt. Amelia Huffman said the officers went to the house listed on the search warrant, but it turned out the source was wrong.
Seven police officers were put on paid administrative leave as the department investigates, standard procedure when officers are involved in shootings, Huffman said.
Huffman declined to say much about the underlying case but said it was generated by a unit that typically handles drug and gang crimes.
Khang, 34, and his wife, Yee Moua, told reporters Monday night that they thought intruders had broken into their home.
Moua said she was watching television on the main floor when she heard voices and then windows breaking. She ran upstairs to tell her husband.
Khang said he grabbed the shotgun from a closet and fired three shots out his bedroom door. When his sons yelled at him that the intruders were actually police, he put down his gun and put his hands in the air.
"The whole family is badly shaken and still trying to understand what happened," Moua said. She and Khang showed reporters five broken windows and 22 bullet holes.
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Offline kbohon

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2007, 04:44:51 PM »
Wow. Reminds me of Arpaio's latest fiasco:

• [The New Times Weekly newspaper is suing Arpaio's office for] Routine booking information on two men detained by the sheriff’s office on weapons-violation allegations and incident reports related to the sheriff’s SWAT team assault on the Ahwatukee home in which the tear-gas canisters were lobbed inside, burning down the family’s house and burning to death the family pet. To the horror of neighborhood residents, the MCSO’s armored personnel carrier was brought in to aid in the arrest of the man wanted on the traffic warrant. One of Arpaio’s goobers forgot to put the emergency brake on the tank, and it rolled down a hill and smashed a parked car. (to learn more about this guy's exploits, visit http://www.arpaio.com/wordpress/?p=18)
Heck is where people go when they don't believe in Gosh.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2007, 07:49:25 PM »
I just completed discussing this incident on another forum.    Keep in mind, this guy was defending his home against unknown assailants, CLAIMING  to be police.  Now this guy knew he had not committed any crimes.  The police were lucky to be wearing the vests and even luckier this victim used a shotgun instead of a rifle.  At this time, I understand the police are still trying to decide whether of not to charge the victim with some crime.  We are not in a police state.  not yet anyway.  The police need to have good intelligence and make sure they have the correct house they want to go into.  Especially with a no-knock break in.  In this state, we have a Castle Doctrine.  Not sure the victim should/would be charged with the circumstances described.  (wrong house).  Identifying a target in the dark, is tenuous at best.  Still, I believe he did the correct thing IN THIS INSTANCE.  There have been dynamic entries by bad guys purporting to be police.  It was an honest mistake by police, but it was by the victim in this case too.  I would be interested in LE take on this particular set of circumstances.

Offline Just_a_Biker

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2007, 08:00:01 PM »
matrsnot, are you talking about the thread topic, or kbohon's article?

On the thread topic... I think the guy did a great job!  Only thing I would have done different... kept shooting!  Enter my house on a no knock warrant and I have no idea who you are?  I don't think so.  LE Officers and Judges need to take extra care when requesting and issuing no knock warrents; there are specific circumstances when they are warranted and needed, but not every day search warrants, which is what they are becoming.
The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. Cicero - 55 BC, Rome

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2007, 01:30:51 AM »
I was referring to the Thread title, not Kbohon.  I am not a big fan of Arpaio either, but I try not to knock him or other LE.  I respect some things he has done and think other things are ridiculous.  Some of these incidents have resulted in citizens being murdered by cops and the cops going free.  "Gee, sorry we had the wrong house, but he had a gun and we feared for our lives."  This dynamic entry needs to stop.  all I have to say on this subject.

Offline kbohon

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2007, 01:50:53 AM »
Exactly right, matrsnot. (Well, except for the Arpaio thing, which I do knock frequently, because I think he gives LE a bad name for people who really know what he's about.)
Heck is where people go when they don't believe in Gosh.

Offline I have no username

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2007, 02:14:32 AM »
22 shots and 3 by the home owner...no injuries??? lets commit crime in Minnesota!
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Offline kbohon

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2007, 02:15:30 AM »
It would be far too easy to encourage certain commissioners to run for office there, so I won't.
Heck is where people go when they don't believe in Gosh.

Offline I have no username

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2007, 02:18:48 AM »
no, lets not commit any crimes, but out of 22-3=19 shots depending on if they count holes from the shotgun... maybe less, typical large room in house is 10-20 feet = poor shooting if they (officers) were the least bit fearing/defending their lives.
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If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.
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Offline deputy341

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2007, 02:22:48 AM »
IN my experiance "no knock "warrants are only issued under extreme circumstances. And if your breaking the law to constitute a 'No knock" search warrant, then find a quarter and call someone who cares.  in my opinion I wish we could get more search warrants for particular area's of Pulaski County and get more drugs and crap off our streets!  If you are doing this crap then shame on you and shame on us as a society to make this ok!  Some poeple do try to actually make a living and teach rules, bounderies and limitations to our children.  others do not then look at the new generation of criminals growing up!  (Not saying that all will be that way but most will, unfortunatly!) Sickens me everyday I see the inocent victims, the crack babies, or babies born with other narcotics in their systems, the bruises and marks on the children from thier parents, and the children that grow up and do the same thing to theirs children becuase that is all they know. And yet we allow this as a society.  We take away prayer at schools and wonder why our children are this way.  The national anthem, abitily to disipline my child in public, becuase I'm afraid that I will have the cops called on me. Or how about the children that never make to preschool and some that dont see their 2nd birthday?  Sickening! So now I have children all over Walmart behaving like heathens becuase the parents wont disipline them.  My daughter better hope she never does, I will paddle her behind right there and dare some to call the cops!  I will teach my daughter to be respectful and mindful!  And shame on those who dont!And shame on those that abuse their children! Teaching them a never ending cycle! Maybe if criminals worried more about what will happen for breaking the law then maybe there would be less,  we try to sugar coat everything! Well if your breaking the law I will do EVERYTHING to make sure you have your day in court in front of a Judge. Done venting! Thankyou!
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Offline I have no username

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2007, 02:36:44 AM »
well said!!!!
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If you want total security, go to prison. There you're fed, clothed, given medical care and so on. The only thing lacking... is freedom.
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Offline littlebit

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2007, 04:00:27 AM »
IN my experiance "no knock "warrants are only issued under extreme circumstances. And if your breaking the law to constitute a 'No knock" search warrant, then find a quarter and call someone who cares.  in my opinion I wish we could get more search warrants for particular area's of Pulaski County and get more drugs and crap off our streets!  If you are doing this crap then shame on you and shame on us as a society to make this ok!  Some poeple do try to actually make a living and teach rules, bounderies and limitations to our children.  others do not then look at the new generation of criminals growing up!  (Not saying that all will be that way but most will, unfortunatly!) Sickens me everyday I see the inocent victims, the crack babies, or babies born with other narcotics in their systems, the bruises and marks on the children from thier parents, and the children that grow up and do the same thing to theirs children becuase that is all they know. And yet we allow this as a society.  We take away prayer at schools and wonder why our children are this way.  The national anthem, abitily to disipline my child in public, becuase I'm afraid that I will have the cops called on me. Or how about the children that never make to preschool and some that dont see their 2nd birthday?  Sickening! So now I have children all over Walmart behaving like heathens becuase the parents wont disipline them.  My daughter better hope she never does, I will paddle her behind right there and dare some to call the cops!  I will teach my daughter to be respectful and mindful!  And shame on those who dont!And shame on those that abuse their children! Teaching them a never ending cycle! Maybe if criminals worried more about what will happen for breaking the law then maybe there would be less,  we try to sugar coat everything! Well if your breaking the law I will do EVERYTHING to make sure you have your day in court in front of a Judge. Done venting! Thankyou!


That is definitely worth some karma!
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Offline dixonbob

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2007, 05:16:16 AM »
Well I actually was trying to make the fact that cops get bad crimestoppers tips. I would think they would investigate more before they just knock out 5 windows and pop off 19 rounds at an innocent family. Could have cost lives on either side on a bad tip. I myself in the night just woken up at hearing my door kicked in might just start shooting also.
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Offline matrsnot

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2007, 01:33:27 PM »
First, I know I have not done anything to warrant such an entry into my home.  That said, this guy did exactly the correct thing in my opinion.  Make sure of information or more than just innocent citizens are going to pay for it I am afraid.  Accountability is the key and I have no confidence in a "confidential" informant who is looking to get a break from the police on some other charge.  Innocent people have died because some junkie made up a story about a crack house.  Thank about it.

Offline deputy341

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2007, 11:31:10 PM »
Well I actually was trying to make the fact that cops get bad crimestoppers tips. I would think they would investigate more before they just knock out 5 windows and pop off 19 rounds at an innocent family. Could have cost lives on either side on a bad tip. I myself in the night just woken up at hearing my door kicked in might just start shooting also.

I understand what you are saying and I was by no means directing this at you.  I am sure that most people would feel that way about their door being kick, lord knows I would, it is one thing to protect your family, another to protect your drugs and criminal activity. Unluckly there are mistakes and we do make them, we (LE) are not Gods, only a mere man or woman trying to make a difference.  And if I protect one child from being abused by their parents, or take a drug dealer off of the street, every little bit I do, makes a difference.  Sometimes it is hard see it that way, so I always try to look at the overall picture.  I may not agree with what you say but I will protect your right to say it.
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Offline deputy341

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2007, 11:38:12 PM »
First, I know I have not done anything to warrant such an entry into my home.  That said, this guy did exactly the correct thing in my opinion.  Make sure of information or more than just innocent citizens are going to pay for it I am afraid.  Accountability is the key and I have no confidence in a "confidential" informant who is looking to get a break from the police on some other charge.  Innocent people have died because some junkie made up a story about a crack house.  Thank about it.
I do understand where you are coming from, a confidential informate should have to proove themselves first and there should be additional source that comfirms that information.  I am glad that no one was hurt and this incident can be learned from.

As far as the "dynamic entry needs to stop" I disagree!  These warrants are for protection of everyone including the police.  I am not happy that such a mistake was made, but dont hold all LE liable.  Though this department should have done more leg work before the execution of the warrant.
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Offline matrsnot

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2007, 02:11:29 AM »
While I may agree with you in principle about part of what you said. Deputy, I also feel that the cop and the judge who ogt that no knock warrant should be held liable when these mistakes are made.  Again, it comes down to "We sure are sorry this innocent guy is dead.  We feared for our lives.  It was a mistake."  And generally after that, there is an investigation by the same department responsible for the killing and the slate is wiped clean.  I even remember a shooting in downtown Waynesville, where the cop shot at a car AFTER it had gone by and presented no further threat.  The driver was not a known felon.  Yeah, the cop is no longer a cop, but had that been an average citizen busting the cap, he would have been swarmed and jailed damn fast.  A quiet investigation and he was allowed to resign.  Hmmmm.  As I said earlier, I have committed no ctrime, so the cops should NOT be entering my house.  with that in mind, I WILL shoot whoever breaks in my door and I guarantee it will not be with a shotgun. A final reminder.  I am a supporter of Law Enforcement.  I am NOT a supporter of a police state mentality and will not bow to perceived authority when I know I am in the right. 

Offline phoenix

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2007, 04:00:03 AM »
When we file for a No Knock Warrant, we have to give a description of the house and double check the address to prevent things like this from happening. But it does happen. It is not a fly by the seat of our pants. Our Judges do not allow this. They are very particular when they sign their name on the botton of any warrant. This prevents violating some ones Civil Rights. We are better for it.

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2007, 11:34:55 AM »
Glad to hear that you do this locally.  We are hearing way too much about rogue cops anymore regarding these types of warrants.  It is much more than violating civil rights.  It is about life and death too.  As I have siad before, I do not remember hearing of this type of thing happening (mistake) in our area.  Having said that, now how do you guys and gals feel about what the vicitim did here?  And why would the police have the unmitigated gall to even consider trying to charge him with a crime?

Offline deputy341

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2007, 05:04:56 PM »
There is a very large amount of red tape that we have to go through for a search warrant and even more when we request a no knock warrant!  OUr Judges are very picky, which is a good thing!
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Offline Yankee Trader

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2007, 05:53:32 PM »
The citizen did the exact same thing I would do in that situation.  Like you said Matrsnot he knew he did not commit a crime.  That is the difference there.  I live by some frequent visitors to our jail and the first month I lived in my house they tried to force the front door while I wasn't home.  Someone entering my home will get greeted the same way as they would at yours.  Shoot first and ask questions later.  It is a big deterrent when that word is on the street about your house.

As far as no knock's in this area.  I can think of only a couple that we have had since I have been here.  One of them is memorable because the subject had a large caliber weapon on a bipod pointed at the front door.  Had it been a knock warrant there may have been disastrous results. 

Our judges are the best I have ever been around both in LE and as a citizen.  They are fair, impartial and make sure EVERYTHING is in order before signing off.  As Phoenix said describe the house....we are talking down to shutters, pillars, mailbox etc. It has to be very detailed.

Offline deputy341

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2007, 07:19:40 PM »
My father  always said the same thing! LOL! And everyone knows to got to the door first and let someone know your there, start poking around our house and you will have issues, beginning with the distinct, chick, chick of a 12 gage shotgun! He HE HE!
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Offline Valor7

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2007, 08:36:31 PM »
"As far as no knock's in this area.  I can think of only a couple that we have had since I have been here.  One of them is memorable because the subject had a large caliber weapon on a bipod pointed at the front door.  Had it been a knock warrant there may have been disastrous results."
 
No YT, we would have lost officers on that one if he had a few seconds to react. That case scared the hell out of me.
JB 

Offline phoenix

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2007, 08:19:05 AM »
Glad to hear that you do this locally.  We are hearing way too much about rogue cops anymore regarding these types of warrants.  It is much more than violating civil rights.  It is about life and death too.  As I have siad before, I do not remember hearing of this type of thing happening (mistake) in our area.  Having said that, now how do you guys and gals feel about what the vicitim did here?  And why would the police have the unmitigated gall to even consider trying to charge him with a crime?

How do I feel about what the victim did? I do not think I would have reacted any differently, nor would I consider filing charges on the residence. When you execute a "No Knock Warrant", that is a very important factor that has to be taken into consideration.  That is what makes them so dangerous.

Offline Just_a_Biker

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2007, 08:23:17 PM »
Phoenix and 341, I don't think anyone here is minimizing the risks you take on a daily basis, and for that I personally thank you.  BUT, I think the point of this thread is the fact that LE requested and OBTAINED a no knock warrent for a completely innocent man's house.  THAT is unacceptable!

Like matrsnot, I support LE (as long as they are not harassing ME), but will defend my rights as a citizen to the end, and matrsnot is absolutely correct... slowly, but surely, we ARE entering a Police State.  The roll of LE should not be one of "babysitter" or "big brother", but rather to uphold the laws of our land and to serve the citizens of this Great Nation.  We have echelons of Service in this Country; the US Military, the National Guard and Reserve and LE (Fire and EMS on a different level)...  All of these chosen professions have the same common denominator; to Serve the public and protect their rights.
The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. Cicero - 55 BC, Rome

Offline mark

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2007, 03:18:50 AM »
I agree "SERVE AND PROTECT" not make up laws and rules and put themselves above the law!
We are not human beings having a spiritual experience.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience.
~Teilhard de Chardin

Offline phoenix

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2008, 05:34:03 PM »
Biker,
I am not disagreeing with you. Like I said, I do not think the homeowner should be charged for protecting his family even though his address was on the warrant, it was clearly a mistake on law enforcement, not the home owner. I do not have any idea what probable cause was stated to obtain the warrant or what the expectation of the Judge was that issued the warrant. Again, our Judges want more than just an address on a No Knock Warrant or any warrant as far as that goes, before they will ever sign it. These types of warrants are dangerous and there is no room for mistakes. If you are going to apply for one, you better know what you are going into before you get one.

Offline Just_a_Biker

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2008, 07:26:59 PM »
And phoenix gets kudos & karma for having common sense!!! lol

Really, thanks for what you do and HOW you do it.  If more LE conducted themselves with the professionalism that you show, we would be in a much better place right now...

Biker,
I am not disagreeing with you. Like I said, I do not think the homeowner should be charged for protecting his family even though his address was on the warrant, it was clearly a mistake on law enforcement, not the home owner. I do not have any idea what probable cause was stated to obtain the warrant or what the expectation of the Judge was that issued the warrant. Again, our Judges want more than just an address on a No Knock Warrant or any warrant as far as that goes, before they will ever sign it. These types of warrants are dangerous and there is no room for mistakes. If you are going to apply for one, you better know what you are going into before you get one.
The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance. Cicero - 55 BC, Rome

Offline Traveler

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2008, 09:11:48 PM »
I think the problem is laziness instead of surveillance and investigation. This type of warrant should be an absolute last resort and circumstances should warrant it. Just like the grandmother who was killed a while back shooting at cops when they came in unannounced. A little surveillance would have saved her life. I don't think No Knocks are in need of banning but the bar should be very high to get one.
"The Republicans know we have a constitution, and they dismiss it with contempt and arrogance ... The Democrats simply act like they never heard of it ..."

Offline matrsnot

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Re: Bad crime tip
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2008, 11:28:30 PM »
Traveler, she did not just shoot at those rogue cops.  She hit them.  commendable shooting in a high stress situation.  Too bad she lost her life to those scumbags.