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Author Topic: What is TIF?  (Read 10014 times)

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Offline igahmah at work

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What is TIF?
« on: May 13, 2008, 02:32:25 PM »

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I just read the paper where something about TIF may make it possible to build a pool in the old Fields hotel area just outside the gate.  I'm happy about the pool, I just am not sure what TIF is.  I think it has something to do with getting rid of something not bringing in revenue and building something that will and you can get assistance to build the new thing because it is an improvement.  I may be way off the mark here, somebody "splain" please.  Oh yeah, use language I can understand.
When I was young, I wanted to be older.  This is not what I expected!

Offline Lepard LLC

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2008, 03:42:36 PM »
Tax Incremental Financing is the term I think. It means one person doesn't have to pay the sales tax, where as another in direct competition with the new entity doesn't get to keep theirs. Some people look at this as unfair, others see it as necessary for growth. Ask Mallows Mallows or Jim's market if they think it was fair to run a business in this community for a life time, and see outsiders come in and get to keep their sales taxes, therefore running the locals out of business.
I am not siding with either side, but offering point, and counterpoint.
I do, however, feel that if you offer it to the new guy or gal it should then be offered to his or her competitors.
 
I just read the paper where something about TIF may make it possible to build a pool in the old Fields hotel area just outside the gate.  I'm happy about the pool, I just am not sure what TIF is.  I think it has something to do with getting rid of something not bringing in revenue and building something that will and you can get assistance to build the new thing because it is an improvement.  I may be way off the mark here, somebody "splain" please.  Oh yeah, use language I can understand.

Offline igahmah at work

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2008, 04:14:46 PM »
I agree, I hate to see locally owned businesses go out of business.  But, I do enjoy some of the new businesses that are coming in.  For instance, I hope Meeks continues to have enough business to keep them operational but I do enjoy Lowe's.  Whatever they have to do to get that eyesore away from the front gate needs to be done.  The Fields family has had 15 years to do something with the property and didn't, now someone may be able to make it not only a nice looking place but a facility that we really need in this community.  I also saw in that article that Lebanon "gives" property to  some businesses that want to build there.  That's a great idea.  Give the the property but make them pay sales tax after they are in business.
When I was young, I wanted to be older.  This is not what I expected!

Offline Lepard LLC

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2008, 04:25:26 PM »
Agree.. When The Lowe family wanted to build their new factory here, this communities business people got together and pledged the money to buy their land. I know this because I pledged money. These things can happen here too.. Our cities and county government do not have a plan like this in place though.. Lowe's new boat company still went to Lebanon. I assure you this community, and it's leaders will step up if the need be. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the local government to buy land in the hopes of it attracting factories, there are too many vairiables as to the need of the individual companies. We have one other really huge problem and that is the fact that atleast in our larger cities we have little or no flat land left.. Fort Leonard Wood took our largest ridge ..
 
I agree, I hate to see locally owned businesses go out of business.  But, I do enjoy some of the new businesses that are coming in.  For instance, I hope Meeks continues to have enough business to keep them operational but I do enjoy Lowe's.  Whatever they have to do to get that eyesore away from the front gate needs to be done.  The Fields family has had 15 years to do something with the property and didn't, now someone may be able to make it not only a nice looking place but a facility that we really need in this community.  I also saw in that article that Lebanon "gives" property to  some businesses that want to build there.  That's a great idea.  Give the the property but make them pay sales tax after they are in business.

Offline kevinhillman

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2008, 04:15:37 AM »
I just wanted to clarify a couple of the comments on TIF financing.  You are right that TIF stands for tax increment financing.  It can generally be used only in a "blighted area."  I do not think there is any question that the Fields Hotel is considered blighted.  It does not abate the taxes for the new business coming into St. Robert in the redevelopment area.  The businesses still pay the same tax rate as all of the other businesses in town so there is no unfair advantage to the new business.  Instead, it funnels a portion of the newly generated property tax and sales tax back to the developer to reimburse him for clean-up costs and costs of the infastructure.  For example, if a property generates $100 in property tax before redevelopment and $1100 after redevelopment, that additional $1000 in new money is subject to TIF.  In the case of the proposed TIF in St. Robert, 75% would go back to the developer and 25% would be "passed through" to the city, county, schools etc.  In addition, 50% of the new sales tax would be subject to TIF as well.  In addition, there will be a CID or community improvement district added in this area.  This would levy an additional 1% sales tax in this area only and that money could be used to build an aquatic center if all goes well.  All of this is subject to what the developer is able to bring in.  If you have any questions about the TIF plan, please feel free to contact me.
Kevin Hillman, St. Robert City Attorney
573-451-2000 ext 1110 or khillman@saintrobert.com
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Offline Yankee Trader

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2008, 10:59:41 AM »
There ya go....an additional 1% Sales Tax charged by whatever business(s) move in there.  Same as the St. Robert Blvd. area.....correct??  More ammuntion for LE Tax opponents.

Offline Law101

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2008, 12:28:20 PM »
I am in favor of the LE Tax but I understand that Pulaski County also has other needs and problems that only increased sales tax revenue will help.  The more businesses we can attract to our area the more revenue that will be generated.  You can't expect anyone to spend millions of dollars to clean up that eyesore and build something that will bring added revenue to our area without an incentive to help them do so.  Remember, we are competing with both the Rolla and Lebanon areas when it comes to attracting new businesses to this area.  It is hard to win any competion when you don't have an equal playing field. 
Also keep in mind that once it is built then other businesses will probably build here also. JMHO

Offline Yankee Trader

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2008, 12:43:17 PM »
I agree with you Law but just had an additional thought.  Didn't St. Robert turn down Waynesville when they asked to work together to develop a pool/aquatic center near the City borders.  Now they are talking a tax to build one. I have no problem with the TIF to clean it up, build and attract but am just questioning another CID when there are other probable alternatives for a pool.

Offline Lepard LLC

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2008, 01:23:04 PM »
If this developer is able to keep some of his tax money, and another developer isn't, how is that not unfair to the other developer? He or she is not getting a portion back to improve his or her property.. The local guy who has been developing his mall etc. for years, now has a competitor who is now better funded than he is. Saying he has to pay the same amount of taxes is true, but the new guys getting some of it back. That is unfair to the local guy who spent his life improving your city. I understand the cities position on this, but no one seems to look at that guy who has been here all his life. No matter how it is worded, one has an advantage over another. Business's should have an equal competitive playing field. I might add that the promise of an aquatic center does not an aquatic center make, this promise sounds to me like a veiled attempt to smooth over this plan.
 
Is the city now not concerned people will shop elsewhere when this areas sales tax is pushed to near 8.5 percent, like they were when the law Enforcement tax was brought up?
 
I'd like to make it clear that I am not saying I don't support the idea, I just like to make people think a little. There are two viewpoints to every subject.
 


Respectfully

Rick Lepard
 
I just wanted to clarify a couple of the comments on TIF financing.  You are right that TIF stands for tax increment financing.  It can generally be used only in a "blighted area."  I do not think there is any question that the Fields Hotel is considered blighted.  It does not abate the taxes for the new business coming into St. Robert in the redevelopment area.  The businesses still pay the same tax rate as all of the other businesses in town so there is no unfair advantage to the new business.  Instead, it funnels a portion of the newly generated property tax and sales tax back to the developer to reimburse him for clean-up costs and costs of the infastructure.  For example, if a property generates $100 in property tax before redevelopment and $1100 after redevelopment, that additional $1000 in new money is subject to TIF.  In the case of the proposed TIF in St. Robert, 75% would go back to the developer and 25% would be "passed through" to the city, county, schools etc.  In addition, 50% of the new sales tax would be subject to TIF as well.  In addition, there will be a CID or community improvement district added in this area.  This would levy an additional 1% sales tax in this area only and that money could be used to build an aquatic center if all goes well.  All of this is subject to what the developer is able to bring in.  If you have any questions about the TIF plan, please feel free to contact me.
Kevin Hillman, St. Robert City Attorney
573-451-2000 ext 1110 or khillman@saintrobert.com

Offline Law101

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2008, 01:31:20 PM »
I believe they are talking about building more of a convention complex rather than a public pool.  I would love to see all the cities and the county entities working together towards meeting the needs of the entire county population.

Maybe if the complex is built someone will then build some family entertainment complexes that would not only attract more visitors to our area but be something for our local families to enjoy.

Offline Lepard LLC

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2008, 01:37:18 PM »
It is only a half cent in the Walmart area. I see this as more ammuninition for the Law Enforcement supporters, proving St. Robert isn't as concerned about how much tax anyone has to pay when it comes to their personal growth. It makes it seem they only care about their needs, and none of the needs of the county areas where WE live.. WE the people who are doing our shopping in their city.

There ya go....an additional 1% Sales Tax charged by whatever business(s) move in there.  Same as the St. Robert Blvd. area.....correct??  More ammuntion for LE Tax opponents.

Offline Lepard LLC

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2008, 01:50:57 PM »
A convention complex is needed, but it will be in direct competition with existing businesses who now offer buildings for large gatherings. These other businesses will not be getting a portion of the taxes back. I'd bet they thnk this is unfair to them. We Shriners are considering building larger facilities to host larger events on our property, do you think anyone would entertain a tax break for we locals?
 


I believe they are talking about building more of a convention complex rather than a public pool.  I would love to see all the cities and the county entities working together towards meeting the needs of the entire county population.

Maybe if the complex is built someone will then build some family entertainment complexes that would not only attract more visitors to our area but be something for our local families to enjoy.

Offline kevinhillman

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2008, 01:56:50 PM »
I agree that the developer gets an advantage under TIF, but he also is taking care of a blighted area that no one is going to fix without assistance.  Please keep in mind that Rolla, Lebanon, and the Lake area are waiting with the same type of proposals.  As such, if St. Robert does not stay competitive with those cities by offering incentives, we will lose the new development and that would hurt the exisiting businesses even more.  The Fields property as it exists now is hurting the city and all of the business on Missouri Ave because it is a blighted area.  It is the 1st thing folks see when they come off FLW.
The CID is not meant to help or hurt the Law Enforcement tax issue, we have been working this plan long before that debate came up.  Also, we were in this process when Waynesville came with the pool idea and we could not reveal where we were at that time because of this plan.  We are trying to put into place a mechanism that would allow us to have funding to do something everyone in the community seems to want.  You are right that a lot of things have to come together to make it work, but we are trying.
Again, if anyone wants to look at the plan or see what we are doing, please come by St. Robert City Hall and see me.  I am more than happy to show you.  I am glad that so many folks are interested in what we are doing.
Kevin Hillman, St. Robert City Attorney
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Offline Lepard LLC

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2008, 02:02:51 PM »
One more question.. Is the city funding the cost to set up this TIF or the CID? From my recollection these things cost up wards of $100,000.00 to do.

I agree that the developer gets an advantage under TIF, but he also is taking care of a blighted area that no one is going to fix without assistance.  Please keep in mind that Rolla, Lebanon, and the Lake area are waiting with the same type of proposals.  As such, if St. Robert does not stay competitive with those cities by offering incentives, we will lose the new development and that would hurt the exisiting businesses even more.  The Fields property as it exists now is hurting the city and all of the business on Missouri Ave because it is a blighted area.  It is the 1st thing folks see when they come off FLW.
The CID is not meant to help or hurt the Law Enforcement tax issue, we have been working this plan long before that debate came up.  Also, we were in this process when Waynesville came with the pool idea and we could not reveal where we were at that time because of this plan.  We are trying to put into place a mechanism that would allow us to have funding to do something everyone in the community seems to want.  You are right that a lot of things have to come together to make it work, but we are trying.
Again, if anyone wants to look at the plan or see what we are doing, please come by St. Robert City Hall and see me.  I am more than happy to show you.  I am glad that so many folks are interested in what we are doing.
Kevin Hillman, St. Robert City Attorney

Offline Law101

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2008, 02:19:21 PM »
I know it makes it hard on the other businesses and does seem unfair, but again, we have to remain competitive with other locations. 

Is it possible for the Shriners to do something on the Fields property?

Offline Lepard LLC

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2008, 02:24:47 PM »
No..

I know it makes it hard on the other businesses and does seem unfair, but again, we have to remain competitive with other locations. 

Is it possible for the Shriners to do something on the Fields property?

Offline Lepard LLC

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2008, 03:19:28 PM »
From my recollection there was much debate over this very subject in Rolla.

I agree that the developer gets an advantage under TIF, but he also is taking care of a blighted area that no one is going to fix without assistance.  Please keep in mind that Rolla, Lebanon, and the Lake area are waiting with the same type of proposals.  As such, if St. Robert does not stay competitive with those cities by offering incentives, we will lose the new development and that would hurt the exisiting businesses even more.  The Fields property as it exists now is hurting the city and all of the business on Missouri Ave because it is a blighted area.  It is the 1st thing folks see when they come off FLW.
The CID is not meant to help or hurt the Law Enforcement tax issue, we have been working this plan long before that debate came up.  Also, we were in this process when Waynesville came with the pool idea and we could not reveal where we were at that time because of this plan.  We are trying to put into place a mechanism that would allow us to have funding to do something everyone in the community seems to want.  You are right that a lot of things have to come together to make it work, but we are trying.
Again, if anyone wants to look at the plan or see what we are doing, please come by St. Robert City Hall and see me.  I am more than happy to show you.  I am glad that so many folks are interested in what we are doing.
Kevin Hillman, St. Robert City Attorney

Offline Yankee Trader

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2008, 03:50:46 PM »
It is only a half cent in the Walmart area. I see this as more ammuninition for the Law Enforcement supporters, proving St. Robert isn't as concerned about how much tax anyone has to pay when it comes to their personal growth. It makes it seem they only care about their needs, and none of the needs of the county areas where WE live.. WE the people who are doing our shopping in their city.


Great point Rick!

Offline kevinhillman

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2008, 04:56:40 PM »
Rick, no the developer pays all of the costs of the plan.  He had to deposit $20k with the city before we would even start. 
The big issue in Rolla was that they were trying to force folks to move through emminent domain.  We are not doing that, and as a policy do not do that in St. Robert.  This is all voluntary by the owner.
As a fellow Shriner I have thought about whether we could do anything at the club.  A TIF would not work because the area would not meet the blight standards and the expense would be too great.  You are in the ballpark with $100k in expenses for the developer to set this up.  A CID could work but CIDs need a business that produces sales tax and the only business out there is our own club.  As such, we would be taxing ourselves.  The only benefit would be in the types of bonds we might be able to issue.  I still do not think it is economically feasable but I will do some more reasearch. 
I also want to clarify something that was incorrect in the paper.  The convention center would be built by the developer and not the city.  If anything, we are looking at a recreation center and aquatic center but I want to emphasize that we are merely laying the groundwork for the future.  If we don't lay the groundwork now, then we can never do it. Once we get this in place, we will probably see if the other cities want to cooperate.   Family entertainment is something that is being looked at very seriously for this area, and I can tell you a new movie theater is in the plans already.
Finally, I want to emphasize that the law enforcement tax has nothing to do with this plan.  I am sorry it is getting tied to this, but none of us here at the city even thought of it as we have been working through all of this.  We are simply trying to fix a bad area of St. Robert and make it into something that everyone can benefit from instead of the eyesore and hazard that it is now.
Hope that helps answer some of the questions.  Keep them coming as I want to make sure everyone knows what we are doing.
Kevin Hillman, St. Robert City Attorney
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Offline igahmah at work

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2008, 05:05:08 PM »
Not that it makes a difference, we do need it, but would the movie theatre be in St. Robert or Waynesville.  And thank you so much for trying to get more family entertainment in here.  That is the biggest complaint I here from people being reassigned here "nothing for the kids to do"  No place to take them for birthday parties ie Chuckie Cheese type place, no pool, no skating rink, no mini golf, just not much in the way of family entertainment at all.
When I was young, I wanted to be older.  This is not what I expected!

Offline Lepard LLC

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2008, 05:31:20 PM »
Yes you are correct it was an emminent domain issue, I stand corrected..
 
I like the bond issue, would love to hear more about that route.. There are those in the Shrine wanting growth, and others not unlike myself that are somewhat concerned.
 
Thanks for your time brother.. Appreciate your input here.
Rick, no the developer pays all of the costs of the plan.  He had to deposit $20k with the city before we would even start. 
The big issue in Rolla was that they were trying to force folks to move through emminent domain.  We are not doing that, and as a policy do not do that in St. Robert.  This is all voluntary by the owner.
As a fellow Shriner I have thought about whether we could do anything at the club.  A TIF would not work because the area would not meet the blight standards and the expense would be too great.  You are in the ballpark with $100k in expenses for the developer to set this up.  A CID could work but CIDs need a business that produces sales tax and the only business out there is our own club.  As such, we would be taxing ourselves.  The only benefit would be in the types of bonds we might be able to issue.  I still do not think it is economically feasable but I will do some more reasearch. 
I also want to clarify something that was incorrect in the paper.  The convention center would be built by the developer and not the city.  If anything, we are looking at a recreation center and aquatic center but I want to emphasize that we are merely laying the groundwork for the future.  If we don't lay the groundwork now, then we can never do it. Once we get this in place, we will probably see if the other cities want to cooperate.   Family entertainment is something that is being looked at very seriously for this area, and I can tell you a new movie theater is in the plans already.
Finally, I want to emphasize that the law enforcement tax has nothing to do with this plan.  I am sorry it is getting tied to this, but none of us here at the city even thought of it as we have been working through all of this.  We are simply trying to fix a bad area of St. Robert and make it into something that everyone can benefit from instead of the eyesore and hazard that it is now.
Hope that helps answer some of the questions.  Keep them coming as I want to make sure everyone knows what we are doing.
Kevin Hillman, St. Robert City Attorney

Offline kevinhillman

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Re: What is TIF?
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2008, 06:36:40 PM »
The movie theater would be in the redevelopment area where the old burned out motel is now in St. Robert.  Right now it is just a proposal, but it is in the plan.  There is about 100 acres of land in that area so more than enough for lots of businesses.  I feel your pain about the kids, I have two small daughters myself.

Kevin Hillman, St. Robert City Attorney
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